It's Life!

C

CT2CA

I don’t write on this board often, but I’ve read many of the posts for the past few years. By the complaints and questions I see asked, sometimes I get the impression that some of the newbies have never left their house until they got into salsa.

The salsa dancing world is no different than anything else in life. It doesn’t matter if you want to join a bowling team, a motorcycle club, a church, mountain biking group, etc. There will always be cliques and always people that think they are better than you. Some people will say hello and smile, and some won’t. Even at work and school you deal with the same thing. I don’t want to dance with a smelly girl, nor do I want to sit next to her on a plane. A girl doesn’t want a creepy guy asking her to dance, nor does she want a creepy guy talking to her in line at the supermarket.

If you date within the salsa scene, there will be awkward times when there is a breakup. Salsa is not some evil hobby that makes you uncomfortable to run into people you have dated before. I’m sure a guy can meet women joining a coupon clipping group, but if he dates one and still decides to stay in the group after a breakup, it will be no different than the salsa scene.

If someone’s been taking lessons for years and they still don’t get the basics, people will lose patience and get bored of helping and dancing with them. It doesn’t mean they hate the person, but only that they don’t want to share salsa as an aspect of their friendship. It’s the same if there’s a friend that you cook with, and she’s been burning every meal for the past three years. You don’t dislike her, but eventually you don’t want to cook with her either.

So really, the salsa scene is no different than anything else in life. It’s just all about common sense.
 
CT2CA said:
It’s the same if there’s a friend that you cook with, and she’s been burning every meal for the past three years. You don’t dislike her, but eventually you don’t want to cook with her either.
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I've been looking for a way to put this without sounding like an elitist b*tch... Thanks! :D
 
CT2CA said:
I don’t write on this board often, but I’ve read many of the posts for the past few years. By the complaints and questions I see asked, sometimes I get the impression that some of the newbies have never left their house until they got into salsa. The salsa dancing world is no different than anything else in life. It doesn’t matter if you want to join a bowling team, a motorcycle club, a church, mountain biking group, etc. There will always be cliques and always people that think they are better than you. Some people will say hello and smile, and some won’t. Even at work and school you deal with the same thing. I don’t want to dance with a smelly girl, nor do I want to sit next to her on a plane. A girl doesn’t want a creepy guy asking her to dance, nor does she want a creepy guy talking to her in line at the supermarket. If you date within the salsa scene, there will be awkward times when there is a breakup. Salsa is not some evil hobby that makes you uncomfortable to run into people you have dated before. I’m sure a guy can meet women joining a coupon clipping group, but if he dates one and still decides to stay in the group after a breakup, it will be no different than the salsa scene. If someone’s been taking lessons for years and they still don’t get the basics, people will lose patience and get bored of helping and dancing with them. It doesn’t mean they hate the person, but only that they don’t want to share salsa as an aspect of their friendship. It’s the same if there’s a friend that you cook with, and she’s been burning every meal for the past three years. You don’t dislike her, but eventually you don’t want to cook with her either. So really, the salsa scene is no different than anything else in life. It’s just all about common sense.
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Thanks for this post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
CT2CA,

I could not DISAGREE with you any more. The journey that is taken in Salsa, is not the same for males and females. Men have a harder learning curve and they really should not be compared to women who've been dancing for the same amount of time.

Salsa or dance is a form of art. It is physical expression. There are many people who have been stifled in their lives, for whatever reason... careers, relationships or personal beliefs and for the first time, they find themselves in a new culture, in new surroundings and for the most part, a new world.

If newbies have questions about the culture, then they are warranted because there are rules that apply to this culture specifically.

The "common sense" that my make someone book smart won't help that person become street smart. The female lawyer who is a monster in her profession, turns into a naive and awkward child in dance class and on the dance floor.

There are constantly new people entering the culture and just beginning their journey, not just in Salsa, but in art. So, there will always be questions.

In terms of the cliques and people ego tripping. Most of these people suffer from a lack of humility. As I've made this journey in dance, I make the point of dancing with new women, because when I first started, there were women who took it easy on me.

One teacher told me "it's just about having fun." However, for many people in the community, they have forgotten to enjoy themselves and see Salsa as a way of life instead of it being an expressive art form.

If anyone new is reading this thread, I will tell you that dance, not just salsa is a wonderful journey. If you've never danced before, it WILL change you. You'll find new confidence, friends and more so an appreciation for life.
 
I agree with everything you've said CT2CA, but forums like this do help people get their heads around things that are new to them. Spending all night up close and personal with loads of gorgeous dancers (in spirit and often in body) doesn't come naturally to everyone and can take time to adjust to. Not to mention the fact that the world you've stepped into is more than likely going to be completely alien to you. The quicker people can find understanding the quicker they can get to where you are and realise that it's all common sense.

Everyone isn't ""fantastic"", not everyone cares about the details even though when you're obsessed you (Ed: think) they should, yes people do still get it on just not in the middle of the dancefloor, nobody really cares that you post on a forum, life is both beautiful and a b*tch - so what. If it matters enough to you to enquire about it then it matters and if places like this can help to get a few sheltered or reclusive types out of their houses and boost their confidence then I'm all for it. More people to dance with.
 
Theory of Relativity

CT2CA said:
I don’t write on this board often, but I’ve read many of the posts for the past few years. By the complaints and questions I see asked, sometimes I get the impression that some of the newbies have never left their house until they got into salsa. The salsa dancing world is no different than anything else in life.
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I agree and disagree with you at the same time. I think one of the keys is perceptions, or expectations. Many people assume Salsa - or dance in general - will be some sort of fairy tale, a world where everything is fun, and you can meet lots of cool people and easily make friends.

The reality can hit one like a brick wall; it's far different than I imagined. I started almost a year ago, and it's still sinking in. Overall, it's been a good experience, and I still find it intriguing, but I'm becoming more of an observer than a dancer - at least until I can more fully understand it.

But bear in mind that many posts you attribute to newbies are actually made by veterans. Even experienced salser@s often express their amazement at the salsa scene. They can't believe how easy it is to meet women, or they can't believe how easy it is to dance with them but never be friends with them.

I find it utterly amazing that one can dance with a dozen people in one night and not even learn any of their names. It's hard to decide if that's super cool or tragic.

The pros also offer wildly contrasting opinions, some claiming one should never date a fellow salser@ (and that few do date), others referring to Salsa's "sleazy underbelly." When forum regulars disclose that they met their significant others through Salsa, others members are impresses, or even amazed.

It can be very confusing.

Furthermore, don't assume that all salser@s have prior experience at bowling, bicycling, etc. When I read about all the people who turn to Salsa as an escape from life's problems - including Edie The Salsa Freak - I suspect there ARE many newbies who have never left their homes before they hit the dance floor.

Keep in mind, also, that bowling and biking aren't the most intense social activities. Your bowling partner could be another guy, and you can go biking by yourself. I certainly wouldn't describe bowling as a "high-stakes" activity. (Can you imagine a person intensely training for two years, including expensive private lessons, before participating in their first bowling game?)

In social dancing, people actually hold each other, and the mood is further enhanced by music (and sometimes by people's attire). Salsa can thus be far more supercharged than bowling. Common sense still applies - just as it applies to people who are tripping on drugs. (OK, I wouldn't really compare Salsa to a drug trip, but Edie The Salsa Freak warned the women in class that Salsa is like cocaine to guys.)

When I explore Salsa through the posts on this forum and others, I often feel like I'm reading about astronomy. We know everything is governed by laws (gravity, the speed of light, etc.), yet it sometimes seems like Salsa is full of quasars, supernova and things that bend light and warp time and space itself (e.g. black holes).

Again, that's probably a too dramatic, maybe even weird, analogy, but it's amazing how bizarre the Salsa social scene can appear to some of us.

Yet, if the unknown is scary, it can also be exciting. What would Salsa be without its supernovas?

Your post offers a very good insight from a perspective even many veteran salser@s often seem to miss - common sense. Perhaps the crux, looking back at the title of your thread, is the question "What is life?"

For some people, Salsa is - or at least seems - bigger than life. And if we discover that it's no different than bowling, than some of us may be motivated to look more intensely, hoping to find something a little deeper.
 
Salsa Bear said:
But bear in mind that many posts you attribute to newbies are actually made by veterans. Even experienced salser@s often express their amazement at the salsa scene. They can't believe how easy it is to meet women, or they can't believe how easy it is to dance with them but never be friends with them.

I find it utterly amazing that one can dance with a dozen people in one night and not even learn any of their names. It's hard to decide if that's super cool or tragic.
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If I understood the original post correctly the point was that people are different, some shy, some outgoing, some with good memories for names (->not me), others with good memories for faces (->me).

I am always amazed to read here that people have been dancing with this or that person and don't know anything about them other than they dance on1, on2, cuban, are rough or smooth, on time or off, etc. etc.

I can't figure out how that can be. I have even travelled to other cities on vacation and just by going out to 2-3 clubs on successive nights I get a pretty good snapshot of the local scene. I may run into many of the same people whose names I will have forgotten (but thats just me and my lack of aural memory skills) and thats just in 2-3 nights.

Obviously I get a lot more connection with people I see all the time in the local scene I frequent. When I have been sick or travelling (or both which occurred recently) I get all these questions on what happened and where have I been and I think back about the dates and its only been 8 weeks and everyone's noticed.

Overall I find the dance scene to be a great balance and counterpoint to a mostly frustrating work life dominated by office politics and people sporting fake smiles everywhere I look.
 
Wow, huge respect to you, Salsa_Bear and CanYouTeachMeSomeMoves, for your eloquent and intelligent posts!

And thank you for having the common sense to put paragraphs in, too ;)

One of the reasons why I actually enjoy dancing with beginners and improvers is that very often they turn out to be very cool people
and I enjoy connecting with cool people regardless of where on the learning curve they happen to be.

Good to have you guys on board!

Don't let the haters get to you. It's a shame that even the usually friendly Salsa scene has a few of those - but, you know, that's life!
 
Sorry about the lack of paragraphs before I edited my post. I was in a hurry when I first wrote it.

WessexSalsero, I don't think you got the point of my post. I was not in any way hating on beginners or saying I don't like dancing with them. I was only explaining that there WILL be haters no matter where you go in life. It has nothing to do with the salsa scene.

Even if salsa is ones first real hobby, many of the problems and solutions one comes across within the salsa world have already been experienced by everyone in grade school through high school.
 
Haters

CT2CA said:
I was only explaining that there WILL be haters no matter where you go in life.
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Someone e-mailed me regarding an error I made in describing local Salsa teacher. It wasn't a negative comment, just incorrect - and I suspect people would have guessed that what I wrote was accurate.

Anyway, they wrote, "You should know by now there are a lot of haters in the salsa scene who will make negative comments that have no basis in reality."

I have heard other stories about "haters," factions, etc. In fact, I've kinda sorta run up against one faction - long story, but they don't know who they're dealing with. If you want to keep me from dropping out of Salsa, just pick a fight. :)
 
CT2CA said:
Sorry about the lack of paragraphs before I edited my post. I was in a hurry when I first wrote it.

<snip>

Even if salsa is ones first real hobby, many of the problems and solutions one comes across within the salsa world have already been experienced by everyone in grade school through high school.
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I believe you are saying the politics of salsa are similar to the politics of life. There are clicks, rumors, haters and the same social issues that happen in many other group activities. Relationships fail in salsa, and they fail in bowling leagues too.

I'm also surprised sometimes by people thinking dancing is unique in terms of relationships and group dynamics. It's not a utopia where we all "just get along."

One major difference for partner dancing is the acceptable/normal level of touching, eye contact and meaningless flirting/playful movements.

The same touching would be way over the top in other group activities, but are normal for social dancers.

This does create a situation for crossed signals that is beyond most other activities. A partner may "flirt" or dance extremely sexy with me, and have ZERO intent on anything other than having fun during that dance.

I know many partners well enough to not take it wrong (I laugh and enjoy it), but if they do half that much with a new guy, he thinks they are saying, "take me home". Some view me as "safe" so they sometimes push it when they are in a playful mood. (Part of that is a dance history of a few years...)

All that to say, I can see why the newbies can assume normal rules apply. If a woman was ever that forward/sensual with me on a bowling team, I would take it totally different than the dance floor.

Many don't realize that just because many partners will say yes to dancing, and look into their eyes (while hoping the song ends soon), the floor is similar to other social scenes once the dance ends.

Your point about group dynamics is right on. Some will love you, a few will hate you, most could care less about you or me. Same as high school (although hard for me to remember those days due to a few passing years.)
 
UnlikelySalsero said:
One major difference for partner dancing is the acceptable/normal level of touching, eye contact and meaningless flirting/playful movements.

The same touching would be way over the top in other group activities, but are normal for social dancers.

This does create a situation for crossed signals that is beyond most other activities. A partner may "flirt" or dance extremely sexy with me, and have ZERO intent on anything other than having fun during that dance.
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I would take your statement a step further to say that the "meaningless" flirt with no consequences is a big part of what social dancing is all about. It may have been the point when social dancing was first invented. Social dance scenes can create an environment where its safe to play w/o meaning it*.

*Provided everyone gets the idea. Back in the old days high school kids** went to ballroom dance classes to learn about the etiquette and what dance is all about.
**I am very familiar with this, I was one of them.
 
CT2CA said:
Sorry about the lack of paragraphs before I edited my post. I was in a hurry when I first wrote it.

WessexSalsero, I don't think you got the point of my post. I was not in any way hating on beginners or saying I don't like dancing with them. I was only explaining that there WILL be haters no matter where you go in life. It has nothing to do with the salsa scene.

Even if salsa is ones first real hobby, many of the problems and solutions one comes across within the salsa world have already been experienced by everyone in grade school through high school.
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do people not whine, complaint, judge, hate, love, enjoy,etc, in life?
If salsa is life, why shouldn't it be treated as life? I find your position meaningless in the context in which you put it. With all due respect of course.
 
Meaningless? So if whining is part of life, then taking positions would be part of life also. So in what way would a position (my position) be meaningless? Are you saying that all the whining that my position refers to is meaningless also? If that is the case Viosil2003, then would that not make your response meaningless as well?

In case anyone does not understand what my post meant, I will spell it out. People go into salsa thinking it will be all fun and then find out that is not the case. Then they whine, complain and find fault with salsa. Usually dropping out of it after a while. The girl that gets hurt emotionally by a salsero swears off all salseros forever and says they are all players. The guy that gets turned down too many times quits after a while and says all salseras are stuck up.

My post was a way of defending the salsa scene, because many people that drop out of it after a while will bad mouth it. However, many people do stay in the scene for years or decades and realize there will be issues but are able to deal with them.

Do the people that can't deal with it have issues with other social scenes as well? If you go to any forum that deals with a subject that involves social interaction with other people you will find the same sort of complaints. For example, I used to be into motorcycles and would check out different motorcycle forums. You would see many complaints about people who felt rejected by certain motorcyclists because they either had less experience or the wrong kind of motorcycle. The same type of arguments seen here about whether dancing On2 is better than On1, would be the same type of as whteher Harleys are better than Japanese bikes. Who is a real biker compared to a wanna-be, the same as a street dancer can be compared to a technical dancer.

I will say it again. My point is that no matter where you go, whether it's for work or fun, you will deal with similar issues. So, is there a reason to drop out of salsa or blame the people in salsa for ones negative feelings towards it?
 
CT2CA said:
I will say it again. My point is that no matter where you go, whether it's for work or fun, you will deal with similar issues. So, is there a reason to drop out of salsa or blame the people in salsa for ones negative feelings towards it?
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I think I can understand what you are saying, and I would agree to a point. As a person, you could do bowling, basketball, salsa, canoeing or whatever, and you would be the same person with all the same insecurities, anger, frustrations and everything else..... Regardless of the activity, you would be taking the same traits and beliefs into whatever activity that you get involved in.

Having said that, I do think that salsa does have a particular context to take into account, with a strong emphasis on the body, expressing emotion, and attempting to make a connection with a member of the opposite sex. This is a unique journey, and something that is very specific to salsa (and other forms of dance). As the focus is intensely on the physical, there are a lot of issues that will arise that you just wouldn't find in other activities.

But, I believe that the paths that we choose to walk down have certain key lessons for us, and salsa is just one particular path with its own special lessons.
 
CT2CA said:
I will say it again. My point is that no matter where you go, whether it's for work or fun, you will deal with similar issues. So, is there a reason to drop out of salsa or blame the people in salsa for ones negative feelings towards it?
Click to expand...

Having a life outside of salsa is important.
 
CT2CA, I understand what your were trying to put across in your op. In a nutshell people can apply one's knowledge and life experiences (wisdom and common sense) within the Salsa scene. Some people may be able to apply more common sense than others. It's down to the individual and if someone needs some help/hand holding, then forums like this are most helpful to people in need whether it's dance related or social interraction.

There are aspects of Salsa which would be alien to a lot of people as UnlikelySalero cited with regards to the level of touching and flirting/playful movements. Personally, I have never had a problem reading whether someone is just playful dancing or something more.

People are individuals with different abilities, intelligence, experience, aspirations etc. It is these differences that cause a lot of the social interaction problems that people raise issues about on this forum. A lot of these issues are not unique to Salsa scene as CT2CA alluded to.

Some people have reacted negatively towards CT2CA OP but in my opinion they are missing the point.
 
CT2CA said:
So, is there a reason to drop out of salsa or blame the people in salsa for ones negative feelings towards it?
Click to expand...

I generally agree with your post, except for that last sentence - though I could be misinterpreting it.

In fact, there are MANY reasons for dropping out of Salsa. Why else would the overwhelming majority of Salsa 101 students drop out?

I would love to learn what motivates people to drop out of Salsa. Of course, the reasons are bound to be varied - and not all negative.

As for blaming salseros for one's negative feelings towards it...well, if one has bad experiences with salseros, then why not call a spade a spade? If you simply mean people shouldn't SCAPEGOAT their fellow salseros if they're really not the problem, then I would have to agree.
 
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