latin jazz or salsa

A

acpjr

Changui
Is there a discernable difference between latin jazz and salsa when it comes to music that is danced to by the average club goer? I say average club goer because I've seen performance routines that, in my opinion, are danced to music way too jazzy for social dancing.

If not, then is salsa music a broad term for music that includes among other genres latin jazz?

Consider these clips of popular songs:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAbefDD8OFQ (Pa la niña y la Señora)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZUriFtlGvQ (La Malanga)

Are they latin jazz or salsa?

I know that not all salsa music is the same, but I much prefer the jazzy sounding music. My fear is that I will go to the music store and pick up a cd of music that is either too jazzy and therefore undanceable or "too salsa" (i.e. too soft, romantic, etc.)
 
OK - my opinion for what it's worth - I would consider the two tracks you posted as 'mainstream' Salsa. I've attached a couple clips of what I would consider latin jazz/jazzy salsa. I presonally love dancing and listening to jazzy salsa.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT0Gn_7KIVk (Blue Mambo)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC7atOt4Ce4 (Picadillo)
 
oh man you just opened a can of worms. Tito Puente was the first to fight the concept of salsa as a term and always considered it latin jazz. In his mind, salsa was just marketing. While there are plenty of core artists from salsa classica that have moved to different points on the spectrum (Eddie Palmieri more than most) I still like calling it salsa strictly because it helps easily identify genres under one umbrella term. Latin jazz I don't think does a good enough job of connecting to boogaloo, nor salsa romantica.

The other thing that bothers me about the term jazz is that I don't feel is encompasses the importance of the rhythm within salsa. I think of jazz as an almost sterilization of the rhythm (sorry Max Roach) into a more common, simpler format, and just adding the word "latin" to the front of it doesn't do the rhythmic shift enough credit. It's all semantics, but for me it's salsa.

Lastly the best reason to call it salsa is that it's just generally accepted that clave based music highlighted by brass, and piano instruments and supported by other percussion instruments is salsa. It's just easier to discuss it if you use the same name.

salsology said:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT0Gn_7KIVk(Blue Mambo)
Click to expand...
i can see what you mean with this piece, and maybe the reason you think it's "jazzy" is because it doesn't have the clave, conga or timbales being used, but that doesn't mean that the rhythm isn't there. The clave pattern still underpins that rhythm, even though they aren't using the instrument. This is a little hard to describe without the music clips, but Mike Bello's dvds goes into this. It's definitely salsa in my mind.

salsology said:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC7atOt4Ce4 (Picadillo)
Click to expand...
salsa, without a doubt. it has some interesting parts, where they add an electric guitar (?) and a trumpet solo, but those are not unique to this song and aren't enough to call it latin jazz. peronsally i don't even think it's "jazzy" since the percussion rhythm is sso well established.
 
acpjr said:
My fear is that I will go to the music store and pick up a cd of music that is either too jazzy
Click to expand...

Maybe you could just inform yourself more in advance with some specialist literature for example. Before buying a new CD just purchase a couple of jazz mags and read up on the subject!
 
acpjr said:
Is there a discernable difference between latin jazz and salsa when it comes to music that is danced to by the average club goer?
Click to expand...

opm1s6 said:
The other thing that bothers me about the term jazz is that I don't feel is encompasses the importance of the rhythm within salsa. I think of jazz as an almost sterilization of the rhythm (sorry Max Roach) into a more common, simpler format, and just adding the word "latin" to the front of it doesn't do the rhythmic shift enough credit. It's all semantics, but for me it's salsa.

Lastly the best reason to call it salsa is that it's just generally accepted that clave based music highlighted by brass, and piano instruments and supported by other percussion instruments is salsa. It's just easier to discuss it if you use the same name.
Click to expand...

Its all based on the experience of the listener/dancer. I don't have access to clips from my work computer but if I find them later I could show how different latin jazz is from salsa. The naming thing works both ways. In most parts of the world latin jazz is considered a mainstream thing. Stan Getz, Dizzie Gillespie and Miles Davis were key to promoting it back in the day and their compositions are considered 'Jazz Standards' today. So, you will often see salsa bands positioning themselves as latin jazz if that helps them get a gig at a jazz festival or get attention in the music world. There just are a lot more writers, reviewers and critics in Jazz than there are for salsa.

Regarding 'sterilization' of rhythm, I think that description could apply to swing or smooth jazz. Definitely not to Gonzalo Rubalcaba, Arturo O'Farrill and other current latin jazz non-salsa artists. For hardcore latin jazz its the opposite: a freedom of rhythm. The individual musicians can play 'against' each other in different claves and keys simultaneously, something one cannot do if the music is intended for dancing. If I can find a clip of Nachito Herrera's Afro 6/8 it should be easy to see why its not dance music, yet easy to hear the elements that come from dance music.

So back to the point: is salsa and danceable latin jazz really one and the same:
Yes (the short answer).
 
bailar y tocar said:
So back to the point: is salsa and danceable latin jazz really one and the same:
Yes (the short answer).
Click to expand...

Another hint: Salsa musicians do occasionally market themselves as latin jazz artists. 'Real' latin jazz artists (the ones whose music you can't dance to) would not want to ever be categorized as 'mere' salsa or 'mere' latin. They do tend to be quite the snobs about this.
 
bailar y tocar said:
Its all based on the experience of the listener/dancer. I don't have access to clips from my work computer but if I find them later I could show how different latin jazz is from salsa. The naming thing works both ways. In most parts of the world latin jazz is considered a mainstream thing. Stan Getz, Dizzie Gillespie and Miles Davis were key to promoting it back in the day and their compositions are considered 'Jazz Standards' today. So, you will often see salsa bands positioning themselves as latin jazz if that helps them get a gig at a jazz festival or get attention in the music world. There just are a lot more writers, reviewers and critics in Jazz than there are for salsa.

Regarding 'sterilization' of rhythm, I think that description could apply to swing or smooth jazz. Definitely not to Gonzalo Rubalcaba, Arturo O'Farrill and other current latin jazz non-salsa artists. For hardcore latin jazz its the opposite: a freedom of rhythm. The individual musicians can play 'against' each other in different claves and keys simultaneously, something one cannot do if the music is intended for dancing. If I can find a clip of Nachito Herrera's Afro 6/8 it should be easy to see why its not dance music, yet easy to hear the elements that come from dance music.

So back to the point: is salsa and danceable latin jazz really one and the same:
Yes (the short answer).
Click to expand...

Alright I'll buy that, if what we're saying is that they're basically two terms that are so broad that there is overlap between them. Basicallly that they aren't mutually exclusive. For instance, Gilberto is anything but salsa, but by the inclusion of brazil in the term latin, I guess he is latin jazz. Eddie Palmieri, Ray Barretto and that lot, are definitely salsa, but are also latin jazz. Luis Enrique is not latin jazz, but he is definitely salsa.

nowhiteshoes said:
ive recently been getting into latin jazz (BTW i dont think blue mambo and picadillo - also by carl tjader- are jazzy.

try carl tjader, poncho sanchez, francisco aguabella, bobby shew's album: Salsa Caliente, jacl constanzo.

check her also:

http://www.salsaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2834&highlight=latin+jazz

http://www.salsaforums.com/showthread.php?t=408&highlight=latin+jazz
Click to expand...

not sure who carl tjader and jacl costanzo are, but cal tjader and jack costanzo are awesome :P

bobby shew's Salsa Caliente is excellent btw. I highly recommend it for when you want some more relaxing salsa moments.
 
just taking the piss,

doesn't bother me, i already have the albums, but i thought I should point it out if anyone was going to rush off to google
 
opm1s6 said:
not sure who carl tjader and jacl costanzo are, but cal tjader and jack costanzo are awesome :P

.
Click to expand...




Cal is a jazz/mambo style band from th 50s/60s... big on vibes.... Jack ( who I know ), is a bongo player who frequently "sat in " with Puente and the like , of the same era.

If you want to get a feel of " crossover " from mambo to jazz ,suggest you listen to Machitos album... has remixes from 1942-- 1954 ( charlie parker is featured ).. " Relax and Mambo with Machito and his Afro Cuban allstars " .
 
acpjr said:
Is there a discernable difference between latin jazz and salsa when it comes to music that is danced to by the average club goer? I say average club goer because I've seen performance routines that, in my opinion, are danced to music way too jazzy for social dancing.

If not, then is salsa music a broad term for music that includes among other genres latin jazz?
Click to expand...

What you are probably hearing is " Descarga " ( and maybe some up tempo Dura ).

They are probably more suitable for adapting to the current choreography trend .

If you like that kind of sound.. suggest you invest in these bands ( mainly 50s re mixes )

Tito Rodriguez,,, Machito,, and Puente . They will include, in some cases, Son, Charangas, Boleros and Guajiras . It might give you an insight into the roots of the genre .

That should get you started.
 
nowhiteshoes said:
i havent been able to get into machito as i find the music a bit too primitive for me - although ill have a good listen soon. same with 50's puente but i love his stuff from the 60's on. liked the percussion heavy picadillo, though. im a big fan of tito rodriguez, though not the (many) boleros (as yet ;))

BTW i really like the re-worked version of que bonito es puerto rico by Big palladium 3 from that album you mention.
Click to expand...




Must admit.. it can seem a bit " dated ", and its not easy to get accustomed ( cut my teeth on him , Live ) , but, a good representation of what was considered a " hot " band in its day .

As to the Rumba /Boleros, .. seldom played by most DJs, but a very popular nitely feature in one Tampa club (Used as a slow dance ) .


Also really liked his guajira.. Si Si No No
 
nowhiteshoes said:
i havent been able to get into machito as i find the music a bit too primitive for me - although ill have a good listen soon. same with 50's puente but i love his stuff from the 60's on.
Click to expand...

Thats how music and musical taste evolves. I would also not want to hear the original recordings of that era in a club as it would feel 'flat' to dance to. I do like to listen to the old stuff and then compare them to the modern covers and re-arranged compositions that are played in the clubs though. What I get out of it is discovering the essence of the tune before all the modern embellishments have been added.

Another problem is the recording technology. Its so much better today that you can actually hear the part of the music that fills up the full sound such as minor percussion, coros, sax and violins and they are not overwhelmed by the horns and vocals. Of course that assumes the band isn't skimping on cost by just overdubbing some of that stuff at a later date.
 
bailar y tocar said:
Its all based on the experience of the listener/dancer. I don't have access to clips from my work computer but if I find them later I could show how different latin jazz is from salsa.
Click to expand...

This is for sure non danceable latin jazz:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC7hFZ9sHXQ...e.com/watch?v=qx6KQknqR8Y&feature=related
 
what's the deal with the double posts?

terence said:
Cal is a jazz/mambo style band from th 50s/60s... big on vibes.... Jack ( who I know ), is a bongo player who frequently "sat in " with Puente and the like , of the same era.

If you want to get a feel of " crossover " from mambo to jazz ,suggest you listen to Machitos album... has remixes from 1942-- 1954 ( charlie parker is featured ).. " Relax and Mambo with Machito and his Afro Cuban allstars " .
Click to expand...
thanks. but you must have missed the sarcasm in my comment.

bailar y tocar said:
This is for sure non danceable latin jazz:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC7hFZ9sHXQ...ature=related[/QUOTE] quality vids, thanks
Click to expand...
 
 
nowhiteshoes said:
i havent been able to get into machito as i find the music a bit too primitive for me
Click to expand...

Buy yourself a pith helmet and give it three listens. You'll come around.

On the thread topic: Salsa came from a collision of Afro percussion and spanish/french music and North American jazz, so historically I'd say all salsa is latin jazz. However, things that are LJ and I don't consider salsa:

1) Brazilian Jazz
2) Stuff with wacky time signatures (undanceable)
3) Stuff that's too fast or slow for dancing (but this one is subjective and depends on what the dancer knows how to do)
4) Rumba and Bata music (didn't cross over with jazz)

If I were a DJ I'd have to be stricter, and say anything that clears the floor is not salsa either. But I love dancing to the floor clearers. After 7 years' patternmonkeying to mid-tempo salsa-in-a-cup (ok, it wasn't THAT bad...), it's really good to try something new!
 
noobster said:
Definitely not danceable. Nice jazz, but not danceable. There's a social here that plays this type of music frequently and at this point I've decided never to go again because I inevitably have a bad night due to the lame music.
Click to expand...

I'm inclined to agree, (first clip) but playing devil's advocate for a moment, I tried adding a conga in my head and judging whether it would be danceable then... If I pushed my luck, I could do it, but I figured it's structurally unlike good salsa too, in that I'd expect a salsa track eventually to quit noodling and get to the dancing part. Some brass did start to appear towards the end of the clip, but I think the final killer was the way they swung it - the beats kinda slide into one another rather than being clear and punchy, and the tempo was too variable.

Second clip is waaay outside of my comfort zone. I could just make out clave direction, but sounded like a rumba basis, not son montuno. The chord sequence is too clever clever for my ears. It always sounds to me like the musician is damaged and wants to hurt the world. (There's a brief respite in the closing 6/8 section)
 
(going for the Smiling28 award for most consecutive replies to same thread!)

On the subject of salsa that isn't latin jazz: I tend to call it "spanish pop" or "latin pop" and don't consider it even to be salsa. Though I guess songs like "lady" or that Lenny Kravitz one that don't really have any Jazz in them ought to be called "Salsa" otherwise there wouldn't be any name for it!

Timba's another interesting anomaly that doesn't fit well into my taxonomy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top