Rueda de Casino

[squirrel]

I am currently learning Rueda de Casino and enjoying it a lot... still, it's not like Salsa!

What do you guys think?

[MacMoto]

It's fun in a giggly sort of way, and I also like watching rueda, but it just doesn't give you the sort of high you can get from one-on-one salsa.
And when people start dancing rueda in the middle of a tiny, already crowded dance floor... :evil: That's when salsa really becomes a contact sport.

[peachexploration]

Right, Casino Rueda style salsa is quite different than one on one. It is more of a team effort and everyone has to know the moves. But it is alot of fun and beautiful to watch.

[sagitta]

What do I think? I enjoy it a lot. :)

[squirrel]

yes, it is a lot of fun... but how do you teach guys how to lead in Rueda, when they expect girls to help them, by backleading, and the girls do...?! :shock: :shock: :shock:

[sagitta]

That is one of the problems with casino de rueda. It all comes down to your dancing philosophy and skill level as a dancer. For instance, during practice sessions I believe that a follower should never ever backlead a leader, unless demonstrating what should be done. However, for social dancing I would say that in egregious cases a follower should backlead / compensate, just as in normal salsa one couple dancing. The problem of backleading is worse in rueda because the caller calls out moves so the follower knows what to expect rather then having to rely on just following, and so to be a true follower in rueda one must be a really good dancer in that role.

[peachexploration]

yes, it is a lot of fun... but how do you teach guys how to lead in Rueda, when they expect girls to help them, by backleading, and the girls do...?! :shock: :shock: :shock:

Exactly. My point has always been that this is not the focus of Casino Rueda particularly for beginners. My reccommendation is to have beginners learn one on one "before" learning rueda. But that's just my point, others do not feel that way. :arrow:

[Miami Rueda dancer]

um.... men that do casino rueda have to lead the women all the time :D I think tis pretty fun :P

[SMF]

Hello !

For me, Rueda is just one possibility in all Salsa variations that exist.

It is necessary for a beginner to know how to dance (one on one) and how to lead the girl.
Moreover, when you dance one on one, you are more whith you Follower, you dance together and have an exchange. you don't have this exchange in a rueda. So it's fun but in my opinion, one rueda per night is enough :D

[peachexploration]

....Moreover, when you dance one on one, you are more whith you Follower, you dance together and have an exchange. you don't have this exchange in a rueda....Right SMF, totally agree with you there. :)

[simona]

This subject comes up a lot where I live. The key to Casino Rueda is Casino. This is a couple's dance done in Cuba. It's similar to Salsa, but not the same. Once you learn the basics of Casino, one-on-one, then move on to learning the rueda part. This will take care of all the issues of followers backleading and leads not leading.

I wrote this article a while back explaining Casino-Style Salsa - http://www.eugenesalsa.com/salsa_articles/CasinoRueda.cfm. Feel free to check it out.

I'm part of one of many groups on the west coast trying to promote Casino-style Salsa (in or out of a wheel). Also, check out Salsapower.com - promoting Casino world-wide.

It is an amazing, fun couples dance. If anyone wants to know of good videos that highlight Casino, just let me know.

Thanks,

[squirrel]

This is a great idea simona! Teaching Casino first and then the Rueda! :)

I teach LA on1 mostly... but I think I'll just take the Rueda moves and do them individually (in couples) then put them together! :)

[Guarachero]

I disagree. These two terms are the same. The name Salsa was but a name used as the rest of the world assimilated this Cuban dance.

There is no difference. If you dance in structure, you can still do as much as you do in pairs.

Guarachero

[peachexploration]

... These two terms are the same....

Actually, they're not. Rueda is the differentiating term. In Cuba, the Salsa dance goes by the name of Casino. Rueda de Casino (Casino Wheel) is a formation made up of two or more couples which includes a "leader" or caller so to speak. Rueda de Casino uses some of the same dance figures BUT it also exchanges partners within the group, hence the call "Dame". It originates from the French Contradanza which was in style in the 18th Century and was very popular at Cuban society balls.

[Guarachero]

It is not that in Cuba goes by the name of Casino. That's the name given to the faster version of Son. That dance was invented by Cubans in Cuba. Later took a more international name.

Of course, Rueda measns circle. But my point is that when people ask about the difference between Salsa and Casino, I (as having been at its birth place and been a participant) have to disagree.

When comparsa soloist and Quinceañeras choreographer Alfaro came up with the idea, no one would have believed that this youthful play could have scalated to so much controversy. I never would have believed that there were so many Salsa authorities out there.

Guarachero

[peachexploration]

Guarachero, I think we're speaking of two different things here. Let's get back to the point of this thread which is about Raluca teaching LA style Salsa and learning Rueda de Casino. The differences between them and what we think about Rueda de Casino, etc.

[valconix]

Alot of moves I do in normal salsa are Rueda moves also. I'd say almost 60%-70% of it. For me there's not much differences, infact when I'm dancing Salsa with someone I know that does Rueda, I sometime say to them, I'm going to call out some Rueda moves, I just call it out and we both do it as a normal Salsa move.

[squirrel]

But I don't think you need to call it out! You can just lead it...

[valconix]

The simple moves yes, however for more complex moves, i.e where both people needs to preform a certain action, then it needs to called out, there's a few series of moves where they all start of the same, however the endings are different. A skipping rueda move pops to mind, where if I didn't call it out, I'd only be the only one performing this, where really both needs to perform it.

[squirrel]

Oh, I see...

Well, my preference is to dance without being warned... ;)

[valconix]

Well, my preference is to dance without being warned...
being warned ? lol I to would have a issues with dancing also if I was being warned :) think of it as casual smooth chit chat on the dance floor.

[hopelessly_addicted]

being warned ? lol I to would have a issues with dancing also if I was being warned :) think of it as casual smooth chit chat on the dance floor.

I'm really ignorant with rueda de casino so this might sound stupid, but wouldn't "smooth chit chatting" on the dance floor get in the way of forming that close connection/intimacy with your partner and the music? I always thought of rueda as always having that playful element because of the pre-warning factor.

[peachexploration]

...I'm really ignorant with rueda de casino so this might sound stupid, but wouldn't "smooth chit chatting" on the dance floor get in the way of forming that close connection/intimacy with your partner and the music? I always thought of rueda as always having that playful element because of the pre-warning factor. :D Well, HA, for real Rueda de Casino there would be a problem with smooth chit chat being as though everyone should de paying attention to the caller. If you are dancing one on one, that certainly defeats the purpose of developing your leading and following skills "without" talking. So, your question doesn't sound stupid at all. Makes total sense. :)

As far as movements are concerned, you can certainly do some of the same movement in other styles of Salsa however, there are differences in feel. The movement is more circular as opposed to a slot.

[valconix]

Yep, talking about one on one Salsa, but doing Rueda moves - I guess if that's your thing "forming close connections/intimacy with your partner and the music" then talking may get in the way indeed. But I don't dance for that, there's why I always have to time to talk and smile :) When calling out the moves, I say it like a normal conversation, because it's only one to one dancing and not in a group.

[hopelessly_addicted]

As far as movements are concerned, you can certainly do some of the same movement in other styles of Salsa however, there are differences in feel. The movement is more circular as opposed to a slot.

When i dance with leads who incorporate both LA and rueda moves into dancing, sometimes I feel ambivalent as to whether I should dance around them or in slot :lol:

[peachexploration]

:lol: :lol:

[hopelessly_addicted]

Yep, talking about one on one Salsa, but doing Rueda moves - I guess if that's your thing "forming close connections/intimacy with your partner and the music" then talking may get in the way indeed. But I don't dance for that, there's why I always have to time to talk and smile :) When calling out the moves, I say it like a normal conversation, because it's only one to one dancing and not in a group.

I was also talking about one on one salsa (with rueda moves). Am assuming that where leads call, that's also rueda although not danced in group? Could anyone please clarify this for me?

Also, Valconix, what do you dance for when you dance one on one salsa and call? I ask because for me, "forming close connections/intimacy with your partner and the music" is an intergral part when dancing!

[peachexploration]

....Am assuming that where leads call, that's also rueda although not danced in group? Could anyone please clarify this for me? ....No, technically Casino de Rueda is danced with two or more couples with an "assigned" caller. Otherwise it's just smooth chit chat as Valconix says. :)

[hopelessly_addicted]

....Am assuming that where leads call, that's also rueda although not danced in group? Could anyone please clarify this for me? ....No, technically Casino de Rueda is danced with two or more couples with an "assigned" caller. Otherwise it's just smooth chit chat as Valconix says. :)

Cool :D Thanks for the clarification Peache. Of course.. that makes sense.. all the rueda that I've seen involved passing around partners with equal number of leads and followers.. :p

[valconix]

I think the orginal topic mention Rueda being different from Salsa, I made the comment that I didn't think there was much differences, only because I incorporate both in normal one to one salsa dancing. The lead calls came in where complex Rueda moves are involved. Moves that starts of the same but the endings are different. These are the only times I would call the moves, obviously your partner must know the move or it won't work.

When I first started dancing (years ago) it was all about that, nowaday my excitement comes in seeing others experiencing the joy of Salsa, when I could see and feel my excitement express through them, well that's my kick..

[Guarachero]

Guarachero, I think we're speaking of two different things here. Let's get back to the point of this thread which is about Raluca teaching LA style Salsa and learning Rueda de Casino. The differences between them and what we think about Rueda de Casino, etc.

PeachXploration:

When you speak of Salsa, Rueda de Casino and Casino to a Cuban who was at the scene (and when) of all these started, we will always remember that there is no such a difference. How people from different parts of the world want to call it is not strong enough reason for me.

No body has to agree with me, that's what makes a democratic forum. The one single thing that will keep me from visiting will be when I start to see misleadings and claims that don't match up with history.

Guarachero

[peachexploration]

I think the orginal topic mention Rueda being different from Salsa, I made the comment that I didn't think there was much differences, only because I incorporate both in normal one to one salsa dancing. The lead calls came in where complex Rueda moves are involved. Moves that starts of the same but the endings are different. These are the only times I would call the moves, obviously your partner must know the move or it won't work... I see your point, Valconix. :) And, your right. Both parties would have to know the moves. But I think what others are getting at is "what happens if you dance Casino style Salsa and your partner dances NY Style Salsa? Not that your way is wrong at all but for those who don't know the moves, like you've mentioned before, it will be difficult to dance with those depend on the "unspoken" signals. ;)

Just for clarification and "not to speak for Raluca" but by her original post, I think she meant "I am currently learning Rueda de Casino style Salsa and enjoying it a lot... still, it's not like LA Style Salsa!"

It's all Salsa, just different styles. :)

[peachexploration]

.....No body has to agree with me, that's what makes a democratic forum. The one single thing that will keep me from visiting will be when I start to see misleadings and claims that don't match up with history.

Guarachero Guarachero, exactly "what" isn't matching up with history? :? There are differences in LA Style, NY Style, Cuban Styles, etc. Just like there are different styles in the music, there are different styles in the dance. I never said that they didn't come from the same foundation, I said they are differences. Yes, Salsa is Salsa is Salsa but there are also intrinsic details that definitely define the different styles. And you're right, this is a democratic forum and we don't have to agree. ;)

Again, back to the topic.

[valconix]

peachexploration: Cheers for the clarification - makes sense, where I'm from we seem to mix NY Style/Cuban Style/Casino Style all in a normal Salsa dance, So I was speaking from a mix environment with no salsa laws :)

[peachexploration]

:) :) 8)

[Guarachero]

I guess that all we are speaking of is either terminology or no-Salsa law. That's fine, except that style and names don't change history.

We accept, and many of us rejoice, to see how newer generations and new comers to Salsa assimilate our culture. But for someone like me who has being active in Cuban dances for more than 4 decades, it is going to be hard to make swallow that styles change originality.

When Son montuno, took its Descarga (jazz + ingredients) turn and landed on Guaracha, Casino became its name. We can call it any thing, but for us it is just our own dance wearing an international custom.

And I apologize if did not convey w/clarity. Or probably newer dancers can help me to understand what my Cuban-41-year-veteran dancing feet are unable to see.

Saludos to all Salseros,

Guarachero

[Guarachero]

I see your point. I guess I confused terminology with history.

¡Right! One of the things that delights me is to see the many different styles. If you say LA style v NY’s, it sounds different than Salsa v Casino v Rueda de Casino.

Guarachero

[Guarachero]

But one thing none of you will ever know... Is how happy makes me to see so much passion from so many dancers over the humblest dance (Rueda) grew out of the imagination of teens from the 1960s, during playful afternoons at Patricio Lumumba beach.

I am happy to be here to see that. Thanks with all my heart. And I wish all of us could read English so they, too, have the same feeling.

Guarachero

[peachexploration]

:D Guarachero, here's another thread from the music section that you might find interesting as well. Would love to know your thoughts. :D :arrow: The Roots of Salsa (http://www.salsaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=86)

[Guarachero]

PeachXploration:

Thanks for directing me there.

Those, I've always sustained, were the precursors where Salsa is built on.

I am not going to say that Salsa has evolved tremendously by bathing at many different places. Each culture adds its own to it.

The same happens with Son. When Boricuas assimilated it, it was but a slow motion dance. Just wach a Portorican dance it now, and you'll see how much it has evolved.

The same is with Casino.

Guarachero

[Guarachero]

being warned ? lol I to would have a issues with dancing also if I was being warned :) think of it as casual smooth chit chat on the dance floor.

I'm really ignorant with rueda de casino so this might sound stupid, but wouldn't "smooth chit chatting" on the dance floor get in the way of forming that close connection/intimacy with your partner and the music? I always thought of rueda as always having that playful element because of the pre-warning factor.

Actually, when the Caller delivers the commands through signals, the side talks or singing along the song do not get in the way.

The side effects to that are (1) that the entire group must learn the hand signals and (2) mistakes were numerous because you cannot keep your eyes on the caller 100% of the time.

Alfaro and Macario from Los Guaracheros de Regla at one point spent about a month developing signals due to difficulties in hearing the commands because of loud music. It can be done but still does not work the same.

[Miguel]

I am currently learning Rueda de Casino and enjoying it a lot... still, it's not like Salsa!

What do you guys think?


you are absolutely right.

[praecantricis]

Nope it's about 100x more fun

[davidfroly]

It is not that in Cuba goes by the name of Casino. That's the name given to the faster version of Son. That dance was invented by Cubans in Cuba. Later took a more international name.
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Of course, Rueda measns circle. But my point is that when people ask about the difference between Salsa and Casino, I (as having been at its birth place and been a participant) have to disagree.
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When comparsa soloist and Quinceañeras choreographer Alfaro came up with the idea, no one would have believed that this youthful play could have scalated to so much controversy. I never would have believed that there were so many Salsa authorities out there.
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Guarachero

Very true

[MacMoto]

It is not that in Cuba goes by the name of Casino. That's the name given to the faster version of Son. That dance was invented by Cubans in Cuba. Later took a more international name.

Of course, Rueda measns circle. But my point is that when people ask about the difference between Salsa and Casino, I (as having been at its birth place and been a participant) have to disagree.

When comparsa soloist and Quinceañeras choreographer Alfaro came up with the idea, no one would have believed that this youthful play could have scalated to so much controversy. I never would have believed that there were so many Salsa authorities out there.

Guarachero

Very true
In Cuba, yes... Casino and Salsa are the same thing.

Outside Cuba, in the rest of the world, where other styles of salsa are also danced, Casino is the name given for Cuban-style salsa. So outside Cuba, Casino is a style of salsa but not all salsa is Casino. Saying that salsa and Casino mean the same thing ignores the presence of other styles of salsa -- NY, LA, Colombian, London style, whatever -- which are all salsa but not called Casino.

[PropriedadDeClubDenbow]

Alain Linares ("Puro Habano"):

-How can you even ask me what kind of salsa I teach and dance? There's only one true salsa. Cuban salsa. Also called salsa casino. The first and true one. The other styles were made up of nothing, just because people had nothing to do. And please, never ask me that again. Cuban salsa. And that's it.

[sweavo]

Alain Linares ("Puro Habano"):

-How can you even ask me what kind of salsa I teach and dance? There's only one true salsa. Cuban salsa. Also called salsa casino. The first and true one. The other styles were made up of nothing, just because people had nothing to do. And please, never ask me that again. Cuban salsa. And that's it.

A: Hey! That's not Rice Pudding! There's only one true Rice Pudding and it's made with semolina! And it's called Semolina Pudding! Not only don't you know how to make real Rice Pudding but you also have the cheek to call it Rice Pudding when the real Rice Pudding is right here and it's made with Semolina!

B: But wait, why do you call it Rice Pudding if it's made with Semolina?

A: That was you guys! Not only do you make Rice Pudding with Rice and not Semolina but you call it Rice Pudding too! You don't know what you're talking about! I make the original Rice pudding with Semolina! Rice Pudding is descended from Semolina Pudding which was made right here in Semolinaland! So all Rice Pudding is really just Semolina Pudding but you guys make it with Rice because you are stupid!

[MacMoto]

:lol:

[TheBear_CanDanceToo]

I've told you all before; Harrogate Salsa - Original and Best
Just coz it wasn't the first doesn't mean it's not original

[azzey]

Alain Linares ("Puro Habano"):

-How can you even ask me what kind of salsa I teach and dance? There's only one true salsa. Cuban salsa. Also called salsa casino. The first and true one. The other styles were made up of nothing, just because people had nothing to do. And please, never ask me that again. Cuban salsa. And that's it.

I just don't get it! How do you get the chicken before the egg? The term 'Salsa' was coined in the '70s but Casino was danced and developed in the '50s-60s and (as far as I am aware) the term was not widely adopted by Cubanos until the 1990s, well after Timba had become popular.

[azzey]

Alain Linares ("Puro Habano"):

-How can you even ask me what kind of salsa I teach and dance? There's only one true salsa. Cuban salsa. Also called salsa casino. The first and true one. The other styles were made up of nothing, just because people had nothing to do. And please, never ask me that again. Cuban salsa. And that's it.

How can you even ask me what kind of Salsa I teach and play?
There's only one true Salsa. Cuban Salsa. Also called Timba. The first and true one. The other styles (NY, Puerto Rican, Colombian) were made up of nothing, just because people had nothing to do (like Oscar De Leon). And please, never ask me that again.
Cuban Salsa. And that's it.

:twisted: A musician would never say this as collaboration and taking in influences from other genres is what inspires them!

[witchphd]

Alain Linares ("Puro Habano"):

-How can you even ask me what kind of salsa I teach and dance? There's only one true salsa. Cuban salsa. Also called salsa casino. The first and true one. The other styles were made up of nothing, just because people had nothing to do. And please, never ask me that again. Cuban salsa. And that's it.

I just don't get it! How do you get the chicken before the egg? The term 'Salsa' was coined in the '70s but Casino was danced and developed in the '50s-60s and (as far as I am aware) the term was not widely adopted by Cubanos until the 1990s, well after Timba had become popular.


Seems to me the only utility of that quote is that SF needs a bigger one of these -----> :roll:

[GTO Bruin]

In Cuba, yes... Casino and Salsa are the same thing.

Outside Cuba, in the rest of the world, where other styles of salsa are also danced, Casino is the name given for Cuban-style salsa. So outside Cuba, Casino is a style of salsa but not all salsa is Casino. Saying that salsa and Casino mean the same thing ignores the presence of other styles of salsa -- NY, LA, Colombian, London style, whatever -- which are all salsa but not called Casino.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.)

[Jones, Nikka]

I think we can all agree that the terms "original salsa" "pure salsa" and "true salsa" are all oxymorons.

Most cubans will go as far as to deny the existence of a dance named salsa. They call it mambo, or son, or whatever...

Heck, Tito Puente himself (yes, I know he was portorican) went as far as to say that salsa is "something you put on your food".

Salsa seems to be a combination of everything dancers like aboul latin music and dance. Other than that, it is almost impossible to define.

One thing is for certain. Rueda de casino is the most fun form of "salsa" you can have on a dancefloor with your friends, bar none.

[PropriedadDeClubDenbow]

Well, I can't say that personally I don't accept any other styles than casino, I'm just telling that all Cubans don't. :D :D :D

[devane]

Not a big fan of Rueda but in the Cuban scene I know that's where most of the guys get their first sequences. The sequences they learn in the class disappear after the class but Rueda sequences are re-enforced everytime so that tends to be the bread and butter sequences you will see.

Some rueda moves are not 100% leadable so a little cutting and pasting is required if you want to use them for real dancing.



On the bad side...
I tend to get a lot of back-leading in Rueda which I hate. When they don't know the move they freeze up but are well able to follow the same sequence if it was on the dance-floor. I lead in Rueda even though it seems I can get away with it.

I don't like the fact that I have to be told what I have to do. Maybe that's not an issue for followers but to me it doesn't feel like dancing at all waiting to someone to shout "tres sombreros" (a move with non-leadable elements).

Without being allowed to lead and taking instructions when I dance it doesn't feel like dancing and I switch off. I'm essentially following.

Rueda isn't taken too seriously and isn't a regular part of the class. The bad side of it is you're always doing to same 7 or 8 moves. After you've mastered the moves repeating the same moves for the next few years isn't exactly fun.

I have a clip of some professional Rueda...here's a photo of it.

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/3010/ruedalk1.th.jpg (http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ruedalk1.jpg)

It's definitely not impossible to duplicate with some of the advanced dancers with a little training. But everyone's rueda level is low as it's not priority for them. If I found a place where they did Rueda exclusively I'd check it out .

[Ron Obvious]

Me too, I agree with what you wrote, but I still like rueda for the reason that it's much more efficient than normal salsa. There are less pauses and less down-time (like in salsa when women have to switch all the time and some never learn the switch order). And still, even if you learn the same moves, you still have some moves you learn well and can always remember if all else fails.

But rueda is best danced with only a few people that you know. Even then it won't last long before other people with lower skill level will insist in joining your rueda, and thereby ending it.

In ruedas organised by teachers, even if they say that do only join the rueda if you know something, people with no experience will join the rueda and that's why it never works.