Is it ever OK to bail on a dance?

Leaving someone in the middle of a dance seems like the ultimate dance-floor rudeness to me.

But sometimes I really really want to bail. E.g., when the guy is yanking on my arms, or if he is smelly, or if he has really bad floorcraft and is crashing me into people.

I had a couple of really bad-floorcraft dances last night, with Cuban-style leaders who made enormous circles and flung their arms and legs (and me) every which way. What I tend to do in this situation is start doing the floorcraft myself. I ditch the eye contact, start turning my head this way and that, lower my threshold for refusing moves, and try to rein in the leader by applying back-pressure when a collision seems imminent. (I also stop smiling so the leader will think I am a salsa-snob and not ask me again. Passive-aggressive, I know.)

But something I've noticed about guys with bad floorcraft is that they *don't know they have a problem.* They do not recognize the above activities as a sign that we are taking up too much space on the floor. They do not respond to back-pressure either (probably because their baseline lead usually involves so much force that they don't even notice the difference between the tension I give when following vs when I want to stop them from backing into someone).

So is it okay to just up and leave? Leaders, if you had never heard of floorcraft and had never thought of it as an issue in your dancing, would you want the follower to say something? Or should she just be polite, do the floorcraft, try not to hurt anyone else, and suck up the bad dance?

Speaking as someone who has experienced being left on the dance floor (the reason is that she spotted her b/f dancing with his ex and had to go "rescue" her man), I know that it feels particularly rude. However, I would have to agree with you that those two reasons you gave are good one for leaving the guy on the dance floor. The problem is that those kinds of guys are usually so clueless that they fail to see the cause-and-effect going on. In such situations, I would advocate verbally letting them know why they were being left.

--T

I would say yes if you feel you could be injured or could be used as a weapon to injure someone else (though I'm a big softy and still probably wouldn't bail), if it's just uncomfortable or embarrassing I definitely wouldn't bail, I'd try and enjoy it best I can

You can leave, but stay with the person off....just not dancing. That helps. I danced once with this one crazy person and did just that...worked out well enough that I didn't cause a scene, and did tell her she was a little too much for me...that was my polite way of putting it.

I also did cause a scene once. Someone asked me and I told her outside...and she didn't understand and then on the floor she said not outside. That was it for me. It was way too hot to dance inside that night. People did notice that, but I couldn't help it.

bailing

Bailing out for injury is totally fine. Or exhaustion.

I've had bailing out (either one or mutual) when the song is just not right.
That just gets postponed rather than a total bail out.

I bailed on someone as a total beginner because the guy did not even know a basic an then asked me to teach him right there on the spot in the middle of the dance floor. In retrospect, it was probably seen as rude. But at the time I thought he was rude for saying yes, getting me out there, and then not knowing anything at all given that a class had gone on for a whole hour before where he could have learned by watching then. I think I tried to teach him the basic for half a song and then thanked him and then suggested taking the classes.

I think i also bailed once when the leading was much like a twisted wrestling match. I couldn't hide any expression of pain. So after half a song i thanked them and bailed.

noobster said:

I had a couple of really bad-floorcraft dances last night, with Cuban-style leaders who made enormous circles and flung their arms and legs (and me) every which way.

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Oh those cubans ! [I mean the dancers dancing that style]
I agree with you about the floor craft. Last week few of us were venting about this exact point - that the cuban style dancers (at GK/C) not caring about others around them and one of my friends refused to see it that way. Mostly the cuban dancers have their own venues. Very few show up at the regular salsa clubs and they seem to be the bad ones (in terms of floor craft) of the lot. You might have seen many good ones at Allegros.

noobster said:

So is it okay to just up and leave?

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Under certain circumstances yes.

If the reason is what you mentioned, then stop for few seconds and mention to them your concern. Ask them if they can be a bit careful. After that if they don't slow down or soften, you have all the right to take mitigating steps including stopping the dance. No matter how rude it may be. You can tell them that you are unable to follow and afraid you might get injured.

If you really want to not hurt or appear rude make an excuse like something went into your eye or you need to fix something, or your foot twisted and run to the wash room :twisted:

Unless a partner deliberately does something absolutely unspeakable (e.g. he unmistakable gropes or grinds or she knees him in the family jewels) or unless one partner is injured, I don't think it's OK to bail out before saying something.

Including bad breath or BO - someone has to tell the person, and it should be you. Otherwise (a) how are they going to know and (b) others will suffer too.

IMO, if a lady has first made it clear that she doesn't want to be dipped or has a bad back, and the guy then leads dips or acrobatics disregarding the verbals, then it's OK to bail out. If he's dancing brutally or dangerously (for her or for others) she should ask him to rein in and show more consideration, and only bail out if he doesn't. Ditto for a dangerous female, especially if armed with stilettos, swinging jewellery, or dangerously exuberant arm styling.

Same for those heinous dancing offences, not paying attention to a partner (e.g. she is watching some favoured dancer while she ignores your lead, then blames you), or dancing chronically out of time/beat. You should say something and only bail out if it's not corrected.

You can always bail out by mutual agreement if it's not working. Again it's only polite to have a verbal first: "Hey, this isn't working is it? Let's try later / another time".

Fair enough?

I am in talk to first unless its really a bad thing. camp . but i do think you have a right to bail if it continues to be rude or dangerous to anyone.

Offbeat said:

Oh those cubans ! [I mean the dancers dancing that style]
I agree with you about the floor craft. Last week few of us were venting about this exact point - that the cuban style dancers (at GK/C) not caring about others around them and one of my friends refused to see it that way.

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I don't think it's necessarily a floorcraft issue with the Cuban style. Floorcraft works differently in different styles. A room full of Cuban style dancers tend to work fine - In Cuban style couples do move about. Your space is not only circular but also dynamic. But when everyone else is using the floor in the same way, it's just a matter of weaving through others and finding space to move into. It's not territorial like crossbody styles ("this is MY slot and anyone who invades it will get bad carma x1000!"). Problems happen only when you put Cuban style dancers and crossbody dancers in the same room.

noobster said:

So is it okay to just up and leave?

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I think "just up and leave" should only be considered if you are quite happy to be on the person's "never ever dance again, ever!" list and be badmouthed by him to all his friends. Because that's what's likely to happen. Otherwise, I think you need explain why you want to bail.

The only time I bailed without mutual consent was when I ended up dancing with a drunk non-dancer. Normally when that happens I'd grab the first chance to break away and shine for the rest of the song, but he wouldn't let me go so I eventually said "no this isn't working - let's try some other time when you are sober" and walked off.

There have been times when the music was so bad we both agreed to stop and wait for a better song. Also, a few guys have bailed on me siting exhaustion. And there was one guy who "had to go" because, while he was dancing with me, he saw another guy was trying to get very friendly with his girlfriend.

MacMoto said:

Offbeat said:

Oh those cubans ! [I mean the dancers dancing that style]
I agree with you about the floor craft. Last week few of us were venting about this exact point - that the cuban style dancers (at GK/C) not caring about others around them and one of my friends refused to see it that way.

Click to expand...

I don't think it's necessarily a floorcraft issue with the Cuban style. Floorcraft works differently in different styles. A room full of Cuban style dancers tend to work fine - In Cuban style couples do move about. Your space is not only circular but also dynamic. But when everyone else is using the floor in the same way, it's just a matter of weaving through others and finding space to move into. It's not territorial like crossbody styles ("this is MY slot and anyone who invades it will get bad carma x1000!"). Problems happen only when you put Cuban style dancers and crossbody dancers in the same room.

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I agree with Mac. I think the Cuban style dancers use the space differently from cross body dancers and there's only a problem when the two styles are near each other. I always try to dance near other cross-body couples as their location during the dance is easier to predict but you never know where Cuban style people are going to pop up next!

I have never bailed ...not even when I should have. And these two cases where when the guy was too intime. I have promised myself to leave the floor next time.

I avoid bad leaders that hurts. There are a few ones in town. But first time I endure the dance.

/Luc

I think anyone may - and should - bail out if there is danger of injury to dancer, partner, or other.

I think ladies should be able to bail out on 'intimate' leaders, including making a scene!

I'd like it if people first tried frank but cheerful feedback, but that's not an easy thing to manage, especially if you've just been blindsided by someone's forgetting to take their groceries out of their pockets before coming dancing.

I strongly recommend NEVER bailing on someone because they are rubbish and/or annoying. I have done it once only ever, and it has come back to haunt me!

i so badly wanted to last night

this guy was gyrating/shimmying on every single step he took, it was freaky!!!!!!!!

The only reason i didn't bail was a)i 'm far too nice and b) his hips didn't get remotely close to me, i would have legged it otherwise.

of course if onecentsalsero had been a gentleman he would have saved me instead of laughing at me

I bail very, very seldom, but about a month ago I did. Accidents do happen on the floor, but one of the things I'm fairly adept at is my floorcraft, part of which involves choosing my placement on the floor. The same woman made it three times in a row (across two nights) that she asked me to dance but then objected to where I placed us on the floor to start. The last straw was when I placed us exactly where she had wanted earlier in the night and she then had an objection to that. I did say something though, along the lines of "that's it, that's three times in a row." There was a tiny bit more to the conversation, but we haven't spoken or even acknowledged each other since... which is really quite OK by me. Maybe it sounds harsh on my part, but I really feel fully justified. (And, as far as a scene, the only other person to notice was someone I had just been telling about that night's earlier episode and had just said, "if it happens again, three strikes is it," when she asked me to dance again. He'd been amazed that she'd done such a thing in the first place and, needless to say, was watching as the whole thing played out.)

i did 2 classes last wed and in both classes the girl almost ripped my arms out my sockets (womens revenge? :twisted: ..no probably inexperience). never bailed on a dance but on sat danced with this girl who kept looking past me at some1 else. i followed her eye contact but couldnt see anything special (wondered if she was giving evils to some1 dacing with her SO/potential SO). she gave zero eye contact so missed my hand signals (i was tempted to wave at her to get her attention). wasnt tempted to bail but couldnt wait to finish (ps she definitely wasnt an 'elite' or a beginner) :?

I had a "didn't bail but it crossed my mind" last night... woman asked me to dance but was using me for all of her balance, i.e. the one time we slipped a hand connection she almost fell on her backside, and the one time she free spun herself she almost careened into the couple next to us. Seriously ladies (and I'm sure this doesn't really apply to SF members, but maybe some lurkers will read this to good effect), I (and most other leads I know) would MUCH rather dance with someone doing NO styling but who can keep their own balance!!! Seriously, if I had "lost" grip on even something so basic as a cross body lead this woman (not a beginner) would have fallen over backwards. :roll:

noobster said:

So is it okay to just up and leave? Leaders, if you had never heard of floorcraft and had never thought of it as an issue in your dancing, would you want the follower to say something? Or should she just be polite, do the floorcraft, try not to hurt anyone else, and suck up the bad dance?

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I guess it boild down to the communication style. Just up and leave is not nice. Passive-aggressive is a bit less offensive, but not effective.

I can imagine both verbal and non-verbal communication that less offensive but allows to survive the dance and let your partner know the problem.

I had several dances that were broke up for mutual content. A typical case being overly long songs with partners of incompatible style. I was both on the initiating and on the accepting side such breaks downs and I hope to think the no-one was offended.

I feel that leaving someone on the dance floor without a good reason is rude. But I think that safety (either your own or other dancers`) is a valid reason. If the guy is yanking too hard on your arms or crashing you into other people; do let him know. Sometimes it may be because they are not skilled enough, i.e. they may not realise that the pressure they exert on your arm is excessive, or that they are unable to judge that a particular move will take you headlong into another couple. In this case, you would`ve done both themselves, and any other girls that they dance with, a favour. However, if they know better but are just inconsiderate, want to show off their moves regardless or just can`t be bothered; then you might have to consider not dancing with them even if it means leaving them on the floor. I guess it`s important to figure out which of the two cases apply. Of course, in the event of the first case (poorly skilled, but well meaning dancer), being tactful would be good

noobster said:

Leaving someone in the middle of a dance seems like the ultimate dance-floor rudeness to me.

But sometimes I really really want to bail. E.g., when the guy is yanking on my arms, or if he is smelly, or if he has really bad floorcraft and is crashing me into people....

...But something I've noticed about guys with bad floorcraft is that they *don't know they have a problem.* They do not recognize the above activities as a sign that we are taking up too much space on the floor. They do not respond to back-pressure either (probably because their baseline lead usually involves so much force that they don't even notice the difference between the tension I give when following vs when I want to stop them from backing into someone).

So is it okay to just up and leave? Leaders, if you had never heard of floorcraft and had never thought of it as an issue in your dancing, would you want the follower to say something? Or should she just be polite, do the floorcraft, try not to hurt anyone else, and suck up the bad dance?

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If I was making a girl uncomfortable/hurt because of something I did (say, trying out a new move that I haven`t gotten the hang of); I`d certainly want to know about it. The last thing I want to do would be to keep repeating something without knowing it was making the girl uncomfortable or hurt. Of course, it doesn`t do any harm to say it in a nice way

MacMoto said:

I don't think it's necessarily a floorcraft issue with the Cuban style.

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I didn't say it is. [/quote]

MacMoto said:

Floorcraft works differently in different styles.

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Agree

MacMoto said:

A room full of Cuban style dancers tend to work fine - In Cuban style couples do move about. Your space is not only circular but also dynamic. But when everyone else is using the floor in the same way, it's just a matter of weaving through others and finding space to move into.

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I think no matter what style you dance and where you dance, you either have a good floorcraft or you don't. In fact if anything given the dynamism of the style I would expect Cuban style dancers to have better skills at navigating the floor. There should be no excuses for repeatedly hitting people around you in the same dance. If it is by accident, it is one thing. But if it accident repeats few times during 4-5 minutes then something is definitely wrong.

MacMoto said:

It's not territorial like crossbody styles ("this is MY slot and anyone who invades it will get bad carma x1000!").

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It is not about slot or being territorial. It is about whether you are considerate or not while social dancing. In fact with people dancing in a slot, around you, it should be easier since there is predictability.

MacMoto said:

Problems happen only when you put Cuban style dancers and crossbody dancers in the same room.

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That is why I said bad ones to distinguish from the good ones. I have seen some good cuban style dancers do it flawlessly without compromising their own dancing or others around them in a room full of NY/LA style.

P.S. - Crossbody also exists in Cuban style doesn't it. I am curious as to why this board refers to NY/LA style as a crossbody style. IMHO that is kind of a misnomer.