Passion in your dance....

[peachexploration]

From Salsawild.com

It is a terrible tragedy to see a couple dance “technically” very well with many beautiful dips and turns, while lacking the critical ingredient of “Passion”. It is this essence of passion that can turn an ordinary salsero or salsera into an extraordinary dancer. Likewise, the lack of passion can take someone with extraordinary potential and make him or her ordinary at best. Many times, when I am teaching a couple, they see me do many different turns and they want to learn them right now! Although enthusiasm is always welcome it must be focused and directed in order to be constructive. It is at this point that I teach them one of them most important lessons of all, “extraordinary salsa happens between the dips and turns”. It is an energy that you reflect from the music. If the music is upbeat and energetic then you will reflect that through the enthusiasm and high-energy moves. If the music is romantic then you will reflect the emotion of the music through a soft lead, romantic turns, smooth sensual dips and passionate expression. Gentlemen, it is a big misconception out there that you need to do a lot of flashy moves to impress the salseras: this is simply not true. Often times those flashy moves can stress the salsera more than impress her. To become an extraordinary Salsero, present the emotion of the music into the dance and makes her feel secure in your arms. Without “passion” your salsa can never attain extraordinary status no matter how many moves, turns, shines and dips you learn.

What do you think are key elements in the paragraph if any at all?

[peachexploration]

No thoughts on this one? :(

[salseralon]

I have been thinking about this post, my question is, where should the source of passion come from? Is it the 2 individuals love of the dance, or passion that 2 dancers feel for each other to make the salsa passion seem real. But then again if u dance with loads of people in a club all that u dont know can u really achieve that passion everytime.

I have to admit that i dont dance with alot of strangers anymore, as i tend to dance with my b/f or with people that we go in a group to the clubs with. Maybe passion exists when i dance because i feel a kind of passion for my b/f, but im not sure. Sometimes i think passion is hard to define. Dancers that dance well 'technically' are impressive, but so are others that dont have as much technique but maybe have the sabor others don't.

Im not sure if my reply really relates well to that article, hence my hesitation to reply, but those are my thoughts on the subject of salsa+passion.

[peachexploration]

Hi Salseralon. Nothing wrong with your post at all. We're all "sharing" our thoughts and will hopefully learn from "each other". :D

Picture this nightclub scene. There is this one couple in the middle who had just met 3 secs before they agree to dance together. They're on the floor dancing and all around them is this salsa frenzy. All dancers around them are fabulous. Dipping and shining and spinning everywhere. The technique is absolutely flawless with every single dancer that's on the floor. However, there is that couple in the middle who is also technically sound but no dips, a few shines, maybe a couple of double turns here and there but guess what? They are the most engaging couple on the dance floor. In tuned with the music and each other. Moves as smooth and precise as anyone could imagine. Almost as if the both of them are just floating on the dancing floor. So much to the point that you forget the other dancers are there. Why is this? Well, I think for one, it's the interpretation of the music first and then each other. :) So, to answer your question, I feel the passion starts with the music first. :)

Anyone else?

[borikenSalsero]

I take it a bit further than the author from salsawild.com to explain dance and passion. I see as the auther is being nice not really saying what is truly meant for the sake of PC.

Dancing without passion is but bodies in motion, for motion to become dance, passion must be present.

Passion lives in the depths of the soul, the music acts as the trigger that enables a dancing couple to paint a masterpiece.

Any move, regardless of flawless execution, without passion will always remain a universe away from transforming into a masterpiece.

While an OK move endulged in passion creates a masterpiece from the ordinary.

Love yourself, not in mind, but in soul and see passion root from anything you do! Know the self is the......

[peachexploration]

...Passion lives in the depths of the soul, the music acts as the trigger that enables a dancing couple to paint a masterpiece.......Boriken, inspiring quotes as always... :D

[MacMoto]

Gentlemen, it is a big misconception out there that you need to do a lot of flashy moves to impress the salseras: this is simply not true. Often times those flashy moves can stress the salsera more than impress her. To become an extraordinary Salsero, present the emotion of the music into the dance and makes her feel secure in your arms.
So true -- guys, take note! :)

I have been thinking about this post, my question is, where should the source of passion come from? Is it the 2 individuals love of the dance, or passion that 2 dancers feel for each other to make the salsa passion seem real. But then again if u dance with loads of people in a club all that u dont know can u really achieve that passion everytime.
For me the source of passion is primarily my love of dance. Then the music decides *how* I express my passion. I start dancing, looking straight at whoever I'm dancing with (I dance with anyone and everyone, whether it's a friend or stranger) and as I do so I channel all my passion into the dance and look for response from the partner. Sometimes I get nothing back (some guys wouldn't even look back at me :( ), sometimes the guy seems to get the wrong signal and decides that I fancy him :?, but there are times when the leader meets my passion with his, and there's nothing more exciting when that happens. These moments are what feed my passion for dance, and thus the circle continues...

[peachexploration]

Gentlemen, it is a big misconception out there that you need to do a lot of flashy moves to impress the salseras: this is simply not true. Often times those flashy moves can stress the salsera more than impress her. To become an extraordinary Salsero, present the emotion of the music into the dance and makes her feel secure in your arms.
So true -- guys, take note! :)... Totally agree, Mac. :D

You know, I just thought of something. Anyone remember the following?
.......
- Relax the body and mind then embrace with your soul.
- Mold palms to the contour of the lady's body part you are about to touch.
- Before touching her for a lead, think of touching a sleeping baby and at the same time attempting not to wake him/her up.
- The energy to create that lead starts at the core, think of a rush of energy coming from the core and then gently transfering at the point of the lead into her, causing her to react to the subtlest of touch.
- Look into her eyes just before that lead creating a sense that all your intentions of making her yours will come together when the lead gets there.
- breath profoundly when there is a deep eye connection.
- If not looking into her eyes at time of lead, then make sure you look into her eyes when she is finished and embrace her with your eyes and most caring touch you can.
- Elongate the touch of hands.
- Breath using the stomach.

and on and on and on...I would say the above by Boriken will certainly help. :D ;)

[peachexploration]

More thoughts?

[SalsaAmore]

I think this is a really tough one. When I dance I love expressing the passion and the sensuality that I feel inside. But, it isn't automatic with everyone. Sometimes it's easier to do with certain people than others. Some dancers just don't allow themselves to get into that space. I don't think they feel secure enough with themselves on the dancefloor to express that side of them. I think some people are just not used to allowing themselves to express themselves that way. And, so when I dance with them I don't feel safe or okay dancing passionately or sensually with them. There are some hot dancers I meet and in an instance I feel they are okay with it, dancing that way. So, when we dance, what happens is just sheer magic. Sometimes, when I look back, I'm thinking, I can't believe I did that with him. But, on the other hand, it was amazing!

[irMaxSALSA]

Can you dance the same way Tito Puente plays Timbales?

Have you ever noticed those crazy faces he made?

That's Passion!

Or how about this...

If you catch yourself making the same faces you make when having sex while dancing salsa...

THAT'S PASSION.

[DeeplyDippy]

If you catch yourself making the same faces you make when having sex while dancing salsa...
How can you tell what faces I'm making under the gimp mask :D

[irMaxSALSA]

Well...

I can't tell.

The mask is a great tool to keep your partner second guessing.

:!:

I can't beleive I replied to that.

[dickda1]

Just have to say...

I look into the eyes/face of my follower when dancing, not down at my feet ever, not off at the crowd. I especially like a certain person that looks into my eyes the whole time when she is dancing with me. We smile at one another and are not flirting. I like that "connection" that we share when we are dancing.

To me, a follower that glances down at their feet or off to the side destroys any passion in the dance. I was always taught that everything about partner dancing is the connection between the couples. I am supposed to protect, encourage and make my partner look good.

For the duration of the dance, she is my world. If reciprocated, that is passion for me....

-Dick

[funseeker321]

my favorite dances are when I'm feeling very connected to my lead and we are moving together and enjoying the dance, not a lot of turns, spins and so on....I do not enjoy dancing with one of my friends who insists on pattern after pattern after pattern....I feel like we are executing moves and nothing more! what is a nice way to convey that I enjoy less patterning?

[DeeplyDippy]

Hmmm, I like the turn patterns. I get bored, think I'm boring my partner if I repeat any patterns in a dance. People have said it's amazing the number of moves I know, that they don't know what I'm going to do next.

Yet ... last week I repeatedly danced close and slow with a woman I find very attractive. I "turned it on" - seriously wound up the seduction factor and there was (one form of) passion in our dance :oops: :oops: :oops:

So, I'd have to agree that passion does not equal skill.

[funseeker321]

""Yet ... last week I repeatedly danced close and slow with a woman I find very attractive. I "turned it on" - seriously wound up the seduction factor and there was (one form of) passion in our dance "


now this is what I call dancing!!!!

[peachexploration]

...So, I'd have to agree that passion does not equal skill.

I agree DD. You can be technically flawless but if you're passion for dance doesn't come through, then basically you're just a robot mechanically moving through the steps or patterns.

[salcero2005]

From Salsawild.com

It is a terrible tragedy to see a couple dance “technically” very well with many beautiful dips and turns, while lacking the critical ingredient of “Passion”. It is this essence of passion that can turn an ordinary salsero or salsera into an extraordinary dancer. Likewise, the lack of passion can take someone with extraordinary potential and make him or her ordinary at best. Many times, when I am teaching a couple, they see me do many different turns and they want to learn them right now! Although enthusiasm is always welcome it must be focused and directed in order to be constructive. It is at this point that I teach them one of them most important lessons of all, “extraordinary salsa happens between the dips and turns”. It is an energy that you reflect from the music. If the music is upbeat and energetic then you will reflect that through the enthusiasm and high-energy moves. If the music is romantic then you will reflect the emotion of the music through a soft lead, romantic turns, smooth sensual dips and passionate expression. Gentlemen, it is a big misconception out there that you need to do a lot of flashy moves to impress the salseras: this is simply not true. Often times those flashy moves can stress the salsera more than impress her. To become an extraordinary Salsero, present the emotion of the music into the dance and makes her feel secure in your arms. Without “passion” your salsa can never attain extraordinary status no matter how many moves, turns, shines and dips you learn.

What do you think are key elements in the paragraph if any at all?

This is so true. There is a very famous salsero in the US that has about 6 turn patterns, but he dances with so much passion that he is known as one of the best leads in the world.

[Flujo]

Great post Peach. Being relatively new to Salsa I can say with confidence that at this stage my passion outways my ability. What you are talking about though I can relate to 100%. I sometimes wonder why you only find yourself looking at some couples for a few seconds even though they are doing all the moves whereas another couple will have you glued just because one of them does a particular step or the other happens to add in their own flavour. Sabor. That's the right word isn't it?

I was at a social and had danced with one of my favourite partners and various others including a mature Salsero of about 5 years or so experience. A track came on and I saw her perk up. I could tell she really liked the track and just had to dance to it. I've never noticed this in anyone that isn't a class regular before so it was kind of refreshing to see. Anyway, as we'd danced before I waited to see if anyone approached her; when they didn't I came up to her and put my hand out gesturing towards the dancefloor.

Peach, that turned out to be the best dances I've had yet. Everything seemed to come together. We were expressing ourselves with the music as the guide, slowing down when the track was subtle, going for it when the track was alive, It was just yeah! Now she has been dancing for roughly about 5 years so I'm sure she has had faaaar better dances but for me that was only the second time I've had a dance like that at this level of experience. We had danced before but this time I didn't feel like I had to try and impress her. Maybe this is due to having more experience and higher confidence than prior nights, or maybe it was down to having a more relaxed attitude, who knows?

If this is what you are talking about in regards to the subject of passion then all I can say is, yes please! :) What is great, is that these dances remind you exactly why you started learning in the first place! Maybe it is best that these dances don't happen all the time as it gives you something to look forward too. It motivates you to ask strangers to dance, seeing if they might be the one to surprise you that night or perhaps when you get comfortable enough with each other to let go after a few dances together.

I just love dancing! 5000+ years and we still find new ways to enjoy it. I must say one thing. Saleras are dangerous. You could so easily use your Salsa powers for evil on guys that love girls who can dance. Stay on the light side of the force, meddle with the dark side at your own risk. :)

[Salsamakossa]

Salcero2005,

Check your PM ... lol.

From Salsawild.com

It is a terrible tragedy to see a couple dance “technically” very well with many beautiful dips and turns, while lacking the critical ingredient of “Passion”. It is this essence of passion that can turn an ordinary salsero or salsera into an extraordinary dancer. Likewise, the lack of passion can take someone with extraordinary potential and make him or her ordinary at best. Many times, when I am teaching a couple, they see me do many different turns and they want to learn them right now! Although enthusiasm is always welcome it must be focused and directed in order to be constructive. It is at this point that I teach them one of them most important lessons of all, “extraordinary salsa happens between the dips and turns”. It is an energy that you reflect from the music. If the music is upbeat and energetic then you will reflect that through the enthusiasm and high-energy moves. If the music is romantic then you will reflect the emotion of the music through a soft lead, romantic turns, smooth sensual dips and passionate expression. Gentlemen, it is a big misconception out there that you need to do a lot of flashy moves to impress the salseras: this is simply not true. Often times those flashy moves can stress the salsera more than impress her. To become an extraordinary Salsero, present the emotion of the music into the dance and makes her feel secure in your arms. Without “passion” your salsa can never attain extraordinary status no matter how many moves, turns, shines and dips you learn.

What do you think are key elements in the paragraph if any at all?

This is so true. There is a very famous salsero in the US that has about 6 turn patterns, but he dances with so much passion that he is known as one of the best leads in the world.

[Flex]

Well, I'm going to be a bit unfashionable here.

I don't agree that "It is a terrible tragedy to see a couple dance “technically” very well with many beautiful dips and turns, while lacking the critical ingredient of “Passion”. "

I think that can be beautiful in an ethereal way. I like Cezanne, Mondrian as well as Van Gogh.... and I very much appreciate technical perfection whether accompanied by 'passion' or not.

But to some extent this bit might be true: "It is this essence of passion that can turn an ordinary salsero or salsera into an extraordinary dancer."

It is definitely true that “extraordinary salsa happens between the dips and turns”. For a long time I've focused on salsa moves as transitions between a fairly limited number of start and end positions, and it's the transitions that are important for rhythm, timing, position, styling, 'musicality' and 'passion.'

I think it's true to some considerable extent that "it is a big misconception out there that you need to do a lot of flashy moves to impress the salseras: this is simply not true." But followers also get bored and can be thrilled to do some move they didn't know, or found difficult, IF the lead makes it easy (or at least possible) for them.

As for "There is a very famous salsero in the US that has about 6 turn patterns, but he dances with so much passion that he is known as one of the best leads in the world." - anyone who limits himself to six turn patterns can expect to get the lead for them perfect. I can easily picture someone like that dancing with bags of 'passion' (but what is 'passion'? - anger as well as love? ... pride?; dedication?) and yet being a dreary narcissist! Not that I am saying the fellow cited is one of those; just that personally I wouldn't necessarily regard him as the model to aspire to.

In fact I know someone like that with a very limited repertoire. Lots of 'passion' and throws himself all around the floor with passion that clears a swathe through surrounding couples. Beginners, and followers who haven't danced with him before, say 'what a great dancer'. But then they discover he does the same thing every time; that he does a couple of dangerous dips with unprepared beginners; and so he only gets one dance from any given salsera every once in a while (which is why he preys on beginners).

[nowhiteshoes]

i remember dancing salsa with an adv girl to a semi-romantic song so i kept it quite simple and made my movements a bit more dramatic... she looked soooo bored. ive not asked again but i didnt want to start chucking out complicated turn patterns to one of those songs. it was only 1 dance ive had with her. ive done this with girls ive danced with before and they give me a smile of acknowledgement or say that was lovely after. will probably ask her again next time i c her (to a very fast song :twisted: ).

[MacMoto]

Well, I'm going to be a bit unfashionable here.

I don't agree that "It is a terrible tragedy to see a couple dance “technically” very well with many beautiful dips and turns, while lacking the critical ingredient of “Passion”. "

I think that can be beautiful in an ethereal way. I like Cezanne, Mondrian as well as Van Gogh.... and I very much appreciate technical perfection whether accompanied by 'passion' or not.
I don't know if "passion" is the word for it, but what I want to see is connection between the two dancers - not just physical connection but emotional connection, the sense of two people dancing *together*. A technical but not particularly passionate dance will still look great if I can feel that sense of connection through their dance. The sight of two highly skilled dancers busy doing their own things and not even looking at each other as they go through moves leaves me cold.

[Flex]

....what I want to see is connection between the two dancers - not just physical connection but emotional connection, the sense of two people dancing *together*. A technical but not particularly passionate dance will still look great if I can feel that sense of connection through their dance. The sight of two highly skilled dancers busy doing their own things and not even looking at each other as they go through moves leaves me cold.
Agree, connection is essential and if you can't guarantee 'emotional connection' too, then at least I want to see each partner paying close and caring personal attention to the other during the dance..

[Flujo]

bump

[Flujo]

It is a terrible tragedy to see a couple dance “technically” very well with many beautiful dips and turns, while lacking the critical ingredient of “Passion”. It is this essence of passion that can turn an ordinary salsero or salsera into an extraordinary dancer. Likewise, the lack of passion can take someone with extraordinary potential and make him or her ordinary at best. Many times, when I am teaching a couple, they see me do many different turns and they want to learn them right now! Although enthusiasm is always welcome it must be focused and directed in order to be constructive. It is at this point that I teach them one of them most important lessons of all, “extraordinary salsa happens between the dips and turns”. It is an energy that you reflect from the music. If the music is upbeat and energetic then you will reflect that through the enthusiasm and high-energy moves. If the music is romantic then you will reflect the emotion of the music through a soft lead, romantic turns, smooth sensual dips and passionate expression. Gentlemen, it is a big misconception out there that you need to do a lot of flashy moves to impress the salseras: this is simply not true. Often times those flashy moves can stress the salsera more than impress her. To become an extraordinary Salsero, present the emotion of the music into the dance and makes her feel secure in your arms. Without “passion” your salsa can never attain extraordinary status no matter how many moves, turns, shines and dips you learn.

You asked what the key elements were in your original post so have emboldened them and put them into a sentence.

"Passion, emotion, enthusiasm, technicality and energy must be focused and directed to create extraordinary expression".

I believe that if you can find the ideal balance between all of those then you can reach your potential. It depends a lot on your mentality too as a lot of people 'just want to have fun' and not take it too seriously. You can 'just have fun' in the sense that you can build your own race car to have fun racing. To do that would require a depth of knowledge way beyond the average driver but your approach to racing would be completely different to that of a dedicated race driver. That makes sense right?

In Salsa I believe it's the same. You can have fun based on a depth of knowledge that allows you to know 'why' you are enjoying certain things and 'how' it is best to express your enjoyment of them, but you might not be the slightest bit interested in performing and training yourself to reach as close to perfect as you can.

I believe passion is the sum of your physical and emotional self expression.

[chrisk]

You asked what the key elements were in your original post so have emboldened them and put them into a sentence.

"Passion, emotion, enthusiasm, technicality and energy must be focused and directed to create extraordinary expression".


Altough you marked the term 'potential' as key element, it's missing in your sentence. ;) Also rereading the original statement, if I want to put all key elements into one sentence, I would come up with following advice:

To create a passionate expression of the music and become an extraordinary salsero, you don't need to dance technically perfect, but use your ethusiams to reflect the energy and emotion from the music in your dance.


I believe that if you can find the ideal balance between all of those then you can reach your potential. It depends a lot on your mentality too as a lot of people 'just want to have fun' and not take it too seriously. You can 'just have fun' in the sense that you can build your own race car to have fun racing. To do that would require a depth of knowledge way beyond the average driver but your approach to racing would be completely different to that of a dedicated race driver. That makes sense right?


It might make sense, but I'm currently having trouble to understand your comparison. But as we also seem to have different understanding of the original statement, I think that's the reason for the trouble. Also I'm not sure if it's a good idea to compare dancing with race driving. In the later case, you beat others and win a race, while in dancing it's not about winning, but about giving the lady the best time. So I think it might be better to look for a different comparison.

[Flujo]

Nice one chris.
I suppose it could be rephrased to this:
"Passion, emotion, enthusiasm, technicality and energy must be focused and directed in order to create extraordinary expression through movement and to reach your potential as a dancer".

But yours is better...
To create a passionate expression of the music and become an extraordinary salsero, you don't need to dance technically perfect, but use your ethusiams to reflect the energy and emotion from the music in your dance....that's the one! ;)

About the race driver, yeah that was probably not the best example to use but was the first one that popped into my head. The idea behind it was about taking the time to understand all the things that can be understood. The movements, the music, how it relates to you as a person, how it makes you feel. What you can do is dissect the technicalities (e.q in these forums) to a point that makes it easier for you to communicate your passion. What I was saying is that even with all of that in mind you can still 'just have fun'.

Having a depth of understanding and enjoying yourself are not mutually exclusive. Our passion is something that comes from within and can be filtered through our awareness of efficiency, but not to the point where our dances become cold and mechanical. Sometimes you might want to jump around like a lunatic but that wouldn't be Salsa would it? The energy the the music creates in us needs to be channeled into movements that fit within the body of the music.

Is that clearer?

[antigone]

Agreed on expressing the music first. But I do love them tricks! :) Still, even the best patterns are meaningless if they are not done to the feel fo the music. I miss simple close-hold movements sometimes, where I can actually feel the connection with my partner on every beat.

[KP-salsa]

I think passion is sometimes overdone. My wife danced with someone recently and his words were "let's just feel the music" and this seemed to be code for "I'm in love with my own dancing and can't be bothered actually doing anything else".

Sometimes I want to say "Here's to less passion and more fun and connection".

[MacMoto]

I think passion is sometimes overdone. My wife danced with someone recently and his words were "let's just feel the music" and this seemed to be code for "I'm in love with my own dancing and can't be bothered actually doing anything else".
Next time she can ask him: "are we actually going to dance then?" LOL

Sometimes I want to say "Here's to less passion and more fun and connection".
Sounds good to me! :)

[Flujo]

I miss simple close-hold movements sometimes, where I can actually feel the connection with my partner on every beat.
It's really nice dancing like that isn't it; to come in close for a section of the song, maybe putting in a single turn every four bars or whatever then bam. Back into the turns and tricks. :)

I started a thread in the video section for people to post any videos of couples who they think have passion in their dancing. Having passion in your dance means different things to different people so it would be good to see the different interpretations.

[chrisk]

About the race driver, yeah that was probably not the best example to use but was the first one that popped into my head. The idea behind it was about taking the time to understand all the things that can be understood. The movements, the music, how it relates to you as a person, how it makes you feel. What you can do is dissect the technicalities (e.q in these forums) to a point that makes it easier for you to communicate your passion. What I was saying is that even with all of that in mind you can still 'just have fun'.


Ah, now I see what you mean and agree with. I can also see how the race driver appealed to you. Thinking about some comparison, maybe something from the arts like a painter might be better. Otherwise I would only add that it not only takes time to understand, but interest as well. Some might only be interested in understand the movement and a bit of the music, while others want to understand everything.


Having a depth of understanding and enjoying yourself are not mutually exclusive. Our passion is something that comes from within and can be filtered through our awareness of efficiency, but not to the point where our dances become cold and mechanical. Sometimes you might want to jump around like a lunatic but that wouldn't be Salsa would it? The energy the the music creates in us needs to be channeled into movements that fit within the body of the music.

Is that clearer?

Absolutely, but why do you think we need to filter our passion throught 'our awareness about effiency'? Isn't it more useful to filter our passion through our awareness for our partner?

Agreed on expressing the music first. But I do love them tricks! :) Still, even the best patterns are meaningless if they are not done to the feel fo the music. I miss simple close-hold movements sometimes, where I can actually feel the connection with my partner on every beat.

True and depending on my partner, I'll add some closed-hold stuff. But I feel that the those close-hold movements feel best with some salsa romantic then some hard-hitting salsa dura.

[Flujo]

Absolutely, but why do you think we need to filter our passion throught 'our awareness about effiency'? Isn't it more useful to filter our passion through our awareness for our partner? Hmm, good question! The reason for finding the most efficient way of moving is out of consideration for your partner and wanting to make things as comfortable as possible. For leads it will be not wanting to be forceful or too energetic if your partner is a lighter follower. For followers it would be not putting too much power into your movements so that the lead isn't having to fight with you. I don't think too much filtering would have to happen on average, maybe just enough to adjust to your partners style. Hopefully dancing with consideration will be something you do naturally anyway. It might be a little more important is in those moments where a song that you've never heard before comes on and drives you absolutely wild. It depends on how excitable you are really. :)

Maybe we could see it this way? Filtering through efficiency (even though it sounds a bit cold) could be the 'how' with awareness and and wanting to maintain connection being the 'why'.

While we are on the topic. I really do envy people that can dance to anything. If the music isn't there to set off that spark then it feels like every dance is empty or average; "blaah" would be a good word to use. How much of what we talked about can come into play without the music and how much do you think our 'awareness' is affected when we are going through the motions? It feels false pushing the boat out to a song that does nothing for you don't you think?

[KP-salsa]

It feels false pushing the boat out to a song that does nothing for you don't you think?

To be honest, no. Well, no more than doing it to any other song.

Connecting with my partner is something that I had to work on, being naturally very shy. I can do it now, but flirting quite so outrageously and dancing to music from the other side of the world that has no basis in my historical culture is pretty false anyway. Gotta say, I can "push the boat out" to pretty much anything. Of course it's easier to music that I absolutely love, but I'm there to dance, I'm not in a music appreciation class.

What I find odd is the people who see "passion" as noodling about with themselves and barely even touching their partner.

[sweavo]

Of course it's easier to music that I absolutely love, but I'm there to dance, I'm not in a music appreciation class.

This is really interesting to me. I can't separate dance and music. I can dance without music playing, but then there is still a sort of music coming from my body and mind, it's still present. I would prefer that than trying to dance with music that doesn't work for me.

What I find odd is the people who see "passion" as noodling about with themselves and barely even touching their partner.

Watch a bunch of cuban rumba guaguanco, then come back and say that! Connection's not all about touch.

[antigone]

This is really interesting to me. I can't separate dance and music. I can dance without music playing, but then there is still a sort of music coming from my body and mind, it's still present. I would prefer that than trying to dance with music that doesn't work for me.



Watch a bunch of cuban rumba guaguanco, then come back and say that! Connection's not all about touch.

Agreed! And it does not even take two to have passion in your dancing. Maybe we got off topic here. I think the initial question was about passion referring to emotional expression of music, not romantic couple passion

[Flujo]

[quote=KP-salsa;80189]
Connecting with my partner is something that I had to work on, being naturally very shy. I can do it now, but flirting quite so outrageously and dancing to music from the other side of the world that has no basis in my historical culture is pretty false anyway.
Wow! I'm quite surprised you said that. Flirting...yeah, take it or leave it but to say that it's (partly?) false dancing to music that isn't part of your native culture? Only if it feels false to you! Even then I'd challenge that in the sense that if you genuinely enjoy it then how long could that stay true for, really? And again, if you enjoy it then it IS part of your historical culture. You are making it part of your history by being there and allowing yourself to be exposed to it. Don't get me wrong, I can see where you are coming from but it would be good if you expand on what you said a little.

Gotta say, I can "push the boat out" to pretty much anything. Of course it's easier to music that I absolutely love, but I'm there to dance, I'm not in a music appreciation class.

What I find odd is the people who see "passion" as noodling about with themselves and barely even touching their partner.If the Dj put on a Top 10 pop song when you'd come out especially to dance to Salsa you'd dance just as enthusiastically? Or perhaps if the same music was being played on rotation 3 months straight...?

You said it yourself. It's easier to dance to music that you love and though a social is not a music appreciation class we do go out to appreciate the music. As far as preferences go, you like what you like and you dislike what you dislike. Music is no more complicated than that imho. Different strokes....

Do you have any examples of noodling? That sounds interesting? :)

[KP-salsa]

[quote]
Wow! I'm quite surprised you said that. Flirting...yeah, take it or leave it but to say that it's (partly?) false dancing to music that isn't part of your native culture? Only if it feels false to you! Even then I'd challenge that in the sense that if you genuinely enjoy it then how long could that stay true for, really? And again, if you enjoy it then it IS part of your historical culture. You are making it part of your history by being there and allowing yourself to be exposed to it. Don't get me wrong, I can see where you are coming from but it would be good if you expand on what you said a little.

If the Dj put on a Top 10 pop song when you'd come out especially to dance to Salsa you'd dance just as enthusiastically? Or perhaps if the same music was being played on rotation 3 months straight...?

You said it yourself. It's easier to dance to music that you love and though a social is not a music appreciation class we do go out to appreciate the music. As far as preferences go, you like what you like and you dislike what you dislike. Music is no more complicated than that imho. Different strokes....

Do you have any examples of noodling? That sounds interesting? :)

By "noodling" I mean dancers I see who ask someone to dance, or who are asked to dance, and then proceed to almost close their eyes and dance so "passionately" to the music that their partner might as well not be there.

My wife danced with someone like this last week. He said "hmm, this is so soulful, let's just feel the music", whereupon he noodled about without even looking at his dance partner, before waking up and saying "I really feel like we're connecting here", then closing his eyes and noodling some more. I think he might have been talking to himself.

I perhaps didn't explain myself clearly enough about the False statement. You asked if it just felt wrong to dance with connectionand passion to music that didn't float your boat. My reply is that before I danced salsa, I didn't dance. I've had to learn how to dance this way, it's not something that is hard-wired within me. Sometimes I think about what I'm doing and just laugh, it seems so ridiculous. So, although I have more fun playing with music that I really love, I'd say that because the dance itself is something that I've come to late in life and built up almost artificially, I find that I can turn on the "cheese" oops, sorry I mean "passion" even to music I don't particularly like as long (and here's the caveat) it has the right rhythms and is a suitable tempo.

Ideally, I'd dance all night to tunes that float my boat, but to say that it doesn't feel right if the music isn't particularly brilliant but danceable? I'd say that I can still make that dance feel like there's a proper connection and thoroughly enjoy it all.

Ultimately, I'm not built to be a lover, so my romantic dances are over the top cheesiness and usually, I try for a fun connection instead.

[Flujo]

By "noodling" I mean dancers I see who ask someone to dance, or who are asked to dance, and then proceed to almost close their eyes and dance so "passionately" to the music that their partner might as well not be there.
Oh, I got you now. To be honest, and maybe this shows just how different peoples view of something can be, I really like when a partner does that. That right there says that the person is really enjoying the music and is comfortable enough with you to close their eyes and be totally absorbed by the moment. Not sure if that would such a good idea to on a crowded floor though. :eyebrow:

Just like you might not see closing your eyes and showing just how much you 'feel' the music as a good thing there are people who might object to comedy or cheese on the dance floor. Can you believe it!? It would be easy to read what you have said in this thread and interpret those comments as a dismissal of passion but honestly, I hear where you are coming from. As long as you know that passion doesn't only equal flirtation and romance. To me passion is an open expression of 'you' and is a form of non verbal communication between partners. Maybe someone else can put it a better way?

I find that I can turn on the "cheese" oops, sorry I mean "passion" even to music I don't particularly like as long (and here's the caveat) it has the right rhythms and is a suitable tempo.Like antigone said, passion isn't just romance. That's only one of the definitions and isn't really the one that applies here. It's the "emotional expression of music". Judging by what you've said you are expressing yourself by showing that you are having fun with your partner which by definition makes you a passionate dancer. Over time maybe you'll learn to express yourself in different ways...?

Flirting can be fun but getting out your Edam and being cheesy is fun too. Regardless of which approach you lean towards, both require a communication and connection between partners and that's what this thread is about right? Expressing yourself emotionally during your dance and sharing that with your partner rather that going through the motions and dancing without any sense of self, which is what can happen when the music doesn't trigger that spark in you. I'm with sweavo on this one. I'd much rather dance to no music than music I don't like.

I'd be very curious to hear your opinion on the same subject a year or two from now KP...

[chrisk]

Hmm, good question! The reason for finding the most efficient way of moving is out of consideration for your partner and wanting to make things as comfortable as possible. For leads it will be not wanting to be forceful or too energetic if your partner is a lighter follower. For followers it would be not putting too much power into your movements so that the lead isn't having to fight with you. I don't think too much filtering would have to happen on average, maybe just enough to adjust to your partners style.


I think I can see your point, that as passionate dancers we should be careful about adding too much passion into our dance. As, ie. KP-Salsa mentioned before, passion can sometimes be overdone. But I don't think we therefor need to filter our passion through 'our awareness of effiency' or 'find the most efficient way of moving'. I agree with you that later is useful to make our dance partner feel comfortable. So in my opinion we need to adept the level of our passion that we use and show in the dance out of consideration and respect for our partner and not because of some 'efficency' filter.


Maybe we could see it this way? Filtering through efficiency (even though it sounds a bit cold) could be the 'how' with awareness and and wanting to maintain connection being the 'why'.


Except that I would rather replace 'effiency' with 'consideration', I like how you put it.


While we are on the topic. I really do envy people that can dance to anything. If the music isn't there to set off that spark then it feels like every dance is empty or average; "blaah" would be a good word to use. How much of what we talked about can come into play without the music and how much do you think our 'awareness' is affected when we are going through the motions? It feels false pushing the boat out to a song that does nothing for you don't you think?

Right, I'm with sweavo on this one. I'm not going to try to dance to music where I can only hear the music. I need to hear and feel the music with my heart and mind as well to connect with it and become the guide for my dancing. So I'll rather prefer to not try to dance to some music that I'm not connecting with.

[chr]

Right, I'm with sweavo on this one. I'm not going to try to dance to music where I can only hear the music. I need to hear and feel the music with my heart and mind as well to connect with it and become the guide for my dancing. So I'll rather prefer to not try to dance to some music that I'm not connecting with.

This is true, but I think there is the opposite direction, that a music becomes meaningful once one starts to learn how to dance to it.

E.g. I used to sit out certain (mostly timba) songs which sounded to me like monotone grinding. After learning a bit of Cuban style dancing, my ears opened for fine the details and songs that used to seem dull and indifferentiated started to tell me stories.

[Flujo]

I think I can see your point, that as passionate dancers we should be careful about adding too much passion into our dance. As, ie. KP-Salsa mentioned before, passion can sometimes be overdone. But I don't think we therefor need to filter our passion through 'our awareness of effiency' or 'find the most efficient way of moving'. I agree with you that later is useful to make our dance partner feel comfortable. So in my opinion we need to adept the level of our passion that we use and show in the dance out of consideration and respect for our partner and not because of some 'efficency' filter.

It took a while but I'm convinced. Consideration is better. :)
Chris, we're agreeing far too much now! From now on we need to disagree on at least one thing on principle.

[naresh]

I think the passion and enjoyment of partner dancing is all about chemistry between the two dancers. To my experience, music, dance skill, age differences, ... come secondary to it.

[Flujo]

You're spot on naresh! We completely missed it in this discussion, though I think it was touched on in the original one. Maybe different language was used but with the same meaning. Anyway, what do you think we can do to create some chemistry if it isn't there already? Is it even possible to create it?
If it's possible, who would object to having a few more dances filled with chemistry...not many imho. :)

And to revisit a couple of responses that might tie into chemistry...


Right, I'm with sweavo on this one. I'm not going to try to dance to music where I can only hear the music. I need to hear and feel the music with my heart and mind as well to connect with it and become the guide for my dancing. So I'll rather prefer to not try to dance to some music that I'm not connecting with.
I'm curious chrisk. Which of these two choices would you go for?
1/ A dance with a partner you have a little chemistry with to a great song.
2/ A dance with a partner you have a lot of chemistry with to a mediocre song.

This is true, but I think there is the opposite direction, that a music becomes meaningful once one starts to learn how to dance to it.

E.g. I used to sit out certain (mostly timba) songs which sounded to me like monotone grinding. After learning a bit of Cuban style dancing, my ears opened for fine the details and songs that used to seem dull and indifferentiated started to tell me stories.
Same here but for the more classic Mambo/jazzy type tracks. It took a while to learn to appreciate the different styles and I'm really not sure which came first in some cases, appreciation > dance or dance > appreciation.

Do you think you could say that seeing the chemistry between two partners dancing to music that you didn't understand would push you to want to understand it so that you could experience the same connection?

Two examples of this would be one, Lambada Zouk dancers who seem to become lost in each other with all that twirling and two, advanced dancers who have this look of tranquillity on there faces that makes you wonder if they are not communicating telepathically they're movements are so entwined. Both are great to watch.

[chrisk]

I'm curious chrisk. Which of these two choices would you go for?
1/ A dance with a partner you have a little chemistry with to a great song.
2/ A dance with a partner you have a lot of chemistry with to a mediocre song.


I'll go for the second one. It's nice to have a great song playing, but when you have little chemistry with your partner it's difficult to have a great dance as well. But when you've got a lot of chemistry going on, then you can easily turn the dance with your partner into a great dance. And suddenly the music might start even feeling to become great as well. And what about you? ;)

[Flujo]

Hmm, it would have to be the first one. Dancing with a favourite partner to average music...I don't know, there is something in those dances that makes it feel like you are killing a good thing. Like driving a Ferrari down bumpy muddy lane - or something like that.

When the right music is on all it takes is a little chemistry and woosh, of you go into Never-never land! :)

[chr]

Do you think you could say that seeing the chemistry between two partners dancing to music that you didn't understand would push you to want to understand it so that you could experience the same connection?

Yes, that was definitely one of the main reasons I became interested in any dance at all. I never really liked the music first. Almost all dance music seems to be somewhat shallow and repetitive if you mainly listen to classical music and jazz.

However, personal chemistry was one of the main reasons I started to learn Cuban as well. On some occasions I danced with a really wonderful woman, whose dance style seemed to be completely different from everything I experienced before. She was clearly dancing Cuban, but could adapt to my slotty habits, and managed turned everything I did into something different and much better without confusing me.

[borikenSalsero]

I should really read before posting, but I'm old and going blind.

Make no mistake, passion and fun aren't synonymous. We can be passionate about having fun, which means joy is sought with ardour, rather than say I'm having fun, therefore the feeling categorized as passion is in me at this very moment. It is simply humanly impossible to feel any one feeling while busy with another emotion. Neither thinking or feeling can multi-task...

When a dancer states that dancing is about fun, it often speaks of the passion in which fun is to be had, rather than the feeling of passion when percussion boils the blood. This type of dancer is often retired from musicality as both reason and the mastery of skill upon a song replace anything else.

If during an outcry, the person breaks a smile, at that very moment the body automatically reacts to match happiness, lessing the ill mood caused by the tears. Same with passion, if you are intertwined in passionate lovemaking with your mate, both physical and mental state will stray from any emotion related to joy. The smile will disappear, all goofiness will be lost, instead replaced by a serious state that can display the passion of love in a much more, well, passionate manner. Though an array of emotions, from joy to elation, can be felt during that passionate interchange between lovers, not all emotions there within are one, but many distinct ones. Even if we express a joy for those actions, the passion during those actions is still passion, it hasn't changed. Modify the love making with a passionate dance and the above still holds true.

Songs all call for different feelings, our job as dancers is to match them. If a song blossoms passion and I, as a dancer, have a cheese doodle in my mouth, then I've disjointed the music, feelings and my actions. Both passion and musicality have been lost due to an overruling of those feelings enticed by the music.

It is common to misread emotions, so much so that passion is morph into joy. More times than not, we are so busy having fun that the music becomes secondary. At that point the closest we can come to match the passion of the song is by some form of bliss, which while absolutely outstanding, it's not indicative of the song's intent. What's the song's intent? Well, if it speaking about death, I'm sure a smile isn't really the intent...

If we listen and pay attention to our body we'll be able to differentiate the message of each so as if the composer himself.

[hyh]

I'm curious chrisk. Which of these two choices would you go for?
1/ A dance with a partner you have a little chemistry with to a great song.
2/ A dance with a partner you have a lot of chemistry with to a mediocre song.

I would sit out if there is no other alternative and unless it can't be avoided without causing offence.

Songs all call for different feelings, our job as dancers is to match them.

I see your point, but let's not quite go so far as to call it a job.

Also it's not an all-important thing, but you probably knew that already.

[bailar y tocar]

Which of these two choices would you go for?
1/ A dance with a partner you have a little chemistry with to a great song.
2/ A dance with a partner you have a lot of chemistry with to a mediocre song.


Easy choice: No.2. The chemistry makes the song tolerable as does a live band with stage presence even if they're just doing a cover.

No.1 is the second-worst scenario of all. The worst scenario: a great band, a great song and no one who can or wants to dance in sight.

I actually have a problem dancing to songs I really like (to listen to). I can never find dance partners that "fit" the song as perfectly as I would wish. (I guess If I ever do, I'll have to get seriously involved for keeps).

[Flujo]

She was clearly dancing Cuban, but could adapt to my slotty habits, and managed turned everything I did into something different and much better without confusing me.
Ah, the kind of partner that leaves a long lasting impression. ;)


When a dancer states that dancing is about fun, it often speaks of the passion in which fun is to be had, rather than the feeling of passion when percussion boils the blood. This type of dancer is often retired from musicality as both reason and the mastery of skill upon a song replace anything else.
Hmmm. Just when you think you have it sussed...
After reading what you said a few times I can see that there is a big difference between being passionate about having fun and being passionate about the music when dancing. I suppose the latter really depends on how your partner is reacting as well - whether he/she is feeling it and whether they can communicate what they're feeling. It does take two after all.
I'm not quite sure what you meant with your second point but would guess that the dancer in that case is more passionate about the action (their fun/moves/enjoyment) than experiencing the reaction (the effect of the music, their partner etc). Is that about right?
Seeing things from your perspective I can understand why some are not all that keen on people that joke around on the dance floor. Depending on how seriously you take the music it could be seen as disrespectful (depending on the song), almost like you don't give a damn and are just there for self indulgence. Not saying people are wrong for thinking that way but it's not something I'd subscribe too at the moment.

Your comments also open up the idea that people who look serious on the dance floor aren't necessarily lacking in passion and in fact may have bucket loads more than the person next to them with a big smile on their face and a laugh a minute. This leads on to what you mentioned below.

Interesting! Please correct me what you said was misinterpreted.


It is common to misread emotions, so much so that passion is morph into joy. More times than not, we are so busy having fun that the music becomes secondary. At that point the closest we can come to match the passion of the song is by some form of bliss, which while absolutely outstanding, it's not indicative of the song's intent. What's the song's intent? Well, if it speaking about death, I'm sure a smile isn't really the intent... I hear you on this. If you understand the language of the song then you're at a definite advantage but even if you don't, and assuming your ears open to these things, you can still go by the tone of the singer. How many of you who don't understand Spanish see the singer as another instrument? In that case the vocalist is the one instrument we should be most attuned to and we should be able to pick up on the emotions when the language is lost on us.

I wonder though. If the majority ('majority' - for the sake of the discussion) of people ignore the music and dance through the emotional dynamics then how possible is it that they'll be affected by the emotional content of the vocals, either consciously or subconsciously?

Another thing...
What characterises a musically passionate dancer as opposed the other? I'd say I'm a bit of both really, depending on who my partner is at the time. Even if my body can't keep up with what is going on inside the music definitely has an emotional effect that can't be categorised. I'd love to hear others thoughts on the interpretation of which type of dancer you are...

Yeah yeah, 1001 question again. Pick one when you have some time to kill! :)

Which of these two choices would you go for?
1/ A dance with a partner you have a little chemistry with to a great song.
2/ A dance with a partner you have a lot of chemistry with to a mediocre song.It's interesting that no one chose the first one. I thought someone might choose the first to take the opportunity to develop more chemistry through the music. Maybe it wasn't clear enough that there was some chemistry (just not as much) with the first dancer.

[chrisk]

Hmm, it would have to be the first one. Dancing with a favourite partner to average music...I don't know, there is something in those dances that makes it feel like you are killing a good thing. Like driving a Ferrari down bumpy muddy lane - or something like that.

When the right music is on all it takes is a little chemistry and woosh, of you go into Never-never land! :)

If you consider 'average music' to be the 'bumpy muddy lane' in your example, what the heck is then some 'bad music'? ;)

Also I'ld agree with you that with the 'right music' or some 'great song' it's easier to go into 'Never-never land', I wouldn't enjoy that 'trip' when there's only little chemistry. And I've got some doubts that when there's only 'a little chemistry' it's possible to develop more during one song. I think it rather takes some time and several dances before it's possible that the chemistry between you and your partner is going to improve. So while it might take longer or be more difficult to go into 'Never-never land' with to the 'average music, I'll surely enjoy my time there a lot more as due to a 'lot of chemistry' my partner will be there as well. And isn't it more nice to enjoy such a trip together then on your own? :)

[Flujo]

If you consider 'average music' to be the 'bumpy muddy lane' in your example, what the heck is then some 'bad music'? ;)
Damn, I must sound like such a snob. That's it, I'm quitting Salsa. None of the music is good enough for my superior ears anymore. Eddie Palmieri...paaah! :P

So while it might take longer or be more difficult to go into 'Never-never land' with to the 'average music, I'll surely enjoy my time there a lot more as due to a 'lot of chemistry' my partner will be there as well. And isn't it more nice to enjoy such a trip together then on your own? :)Always! :) I visited a city club to get a music fix and found that the most memorable dances of the night were the ones where the lady had great eye contact. It's really nice to dance with a lady that is comfortable enough to look at you instead of at her feet or elsewhere. A lot of the time, that and the music is all I need to have a good night. So to me, a little chemistry would be:
Nice eye contact (no cold stares), a few smiles, someone who makes you feel comfortable really - like you don't have to prove anything.

Have you had any experiences recently that relate to this thread?

[chrisk]

Damn, I must sound like such a snob. That's it, I'm quitting Salsa. None of the music is good enough for my superior ears anymore. Eddie Palmieri...paaah! :P


*g* Nice try, but we won't accept your resignation. 8)


Always! :) I visited a city club to get a music fix and found that the most memorable dances of the night were the ones where the lady had great eye contact. It's really nice to dance with a lady that is comfortable enough to look at you instead of at her feet or elsewhere.


Hm, I mostly remember those dance and partners with whom I had great chemistry and we therefor had lots of fun. And whenever I dance with some lady, mostly beginners, who is looking at ther feet, I'll suggest with a smile that her feet won't talk to her about her mistakes. So far most ladies then decided to stop looking downards and rather look at me. :)


Have you had any experiences recently that relate to this thread?

Not much, as my favourite partners mostly live and dance in other cities. And so far I've only met one lady here with whom so far I've got some nice chemistry going on. But I'ld like to dance a bit more with her to see if our chemistry is going to increase and we maybe can add some passion to our dance. The only disadvantage is that I haven't seen her for the last two weeks. :(

[borikenSalsero]

I suppose the latter really depends on how your partner is reacting as well - whether he/she is feeling it and whether they can communicate what they're feeling. It does take two after all.
All challenges are overcome by some type of relevant skill.. It is the challenge of the emotional dancer to determined how to tear down the wall and bring fourth an emotional exchange. The difficulty then becomes the duration of the song and whether his skills are eloquent enough and stronger than the need for a self-absorbed dancer to display the ego on the floor. The better the person is at creating a lure for the self absorbed dancer, the easier it will be to realize that it really doesn't take two rather, one able person to allow the other to fall in love with the dance matching that which you've brought forth.


I'm not quite sure what you meant with your second point but would guess that the dancer in that case is more passionate about the action (their fun/moves/enjoyment) than experiencing the reaction (the effect of the music, their partner etc). Is that about right?

That's correct... you are right on...

Your comments also open up the idea that people who look serious on the dance floor aren't necessarily lacking in passion and in fact may have bucket loads more than the person next to them with a big smile on their face and a laugh a minute. This leads on to what you mentioned below. Think of it this way. Loads of random sexual encounters, each of then taking you to bliss and back, then one day you fall in love and feel lovemaking. Would you trade all of your random sexual encounters for that one that made your world seem like a fairy-tale? Experience has told me that I could do away with all of them, just to feel that one. To feel the one that tells me that my heart can't feel any more passion because it isn't passion itself. Then again, some never get to feel love so the best to hope for is bliss, beyond that, they might just not get a chance...

How many of you who don't understand Spanish see the singer as another instrument? Understanding the lyrics is for those who want to be told what to do, how to think and what to feel. If you can feel the music's kiss then the rest is nothing more than the details which you won't remember when you think of how good the song made you feel. Spanish is my first language, I collect salsa, and listen to more salsa than salsa itself, I couldn't tell you more than 10 words from any song... I could careless what they are saying, I rather feel what's being projected.


I wonder though. If the majority ('majority' - for the sake of the discussion) of people ignore the music and dance through the emotional dynamics then how possible is it that they'll be affected by the emotional content of the vocals, either consciously or subconsciously? As a youngster there is only one world, that which you so ignorantly think there exists. With age you realize that what you thought was, really was a contorted view of what truly is. With experience, it will be realized that feelings teach you what dancing is about. Your ability to overfill a song with skill will lessen simply because feeling your heart explode before percussive madness is more fulfilling than smiles and egotistical conquests.


What characterises a musically passionate dancer as opposed the other?
Feelings... there is a vast array of feelings each night... they can absorb musical lure with ease, and even if skill is not present to diversify the body's motion to musical structure, their mental state more than makes up for a lack of skill.

The emotions of non-emotional dancers are monotone. They can be summed into one feeling; fun. How did that make you feel? ah, fun. How was the dance? Fun. How is it hitting that pattern? Fun! Did you realize that the song is about the death of a man's brother and how it impacted the family? Oh, I didn't know that! Of course, you are too busy smiling and hitting breaks that you forget to allow your body to feel the music.

We all know that many describe dancing fun in terms of skill and their ability to go past a plateau in a given night or dance. Oh my, that was great. I did so many things I didn't think possible... If some rationale for that night isn't met, then fun wasn't had. What they are really saying is that the ego is so in control of their every day actions that soothing an ego with conquest is synonymous to fun. We've reshaped fun to feel like there is some type of validation to our actions. We need to think to actually believe we feel... makes me wanna yawn.

[Flujo]

All challenges are overcome by some type of relevant skill.. It is the challenge of the emotional dancer to determined how to tear down the wall and bring fourth an emotional exchange.Yep. That is the biggest challenge. One that can only be takled once we are aware that the challenge even exists...

Would you trade all of your random sexual encounters for that one that made your world seem like a fairy-tale? Experience has told me that I could do away with all of them, just to feel that one.Though that is the ideal...bliss is a good start and is something you can see regularly if you know what to look for or where to look for it.

Spanish is my first language, I collect salsa, and listen to more salsa than salsa itself, I couldn't tell you more than 10 words from any song... I could careless what they are saying, I rather feel what's being projected.Even though I relate to what you are saying I have always envied people that remember song lyrics. :)

Your ability to overfill a song with skill will lessen simply because feeling your heart explode before percussive madness is more fulfilling than smiles and egotistical conquests.
It takes a special kind of partner to share those moments. I could better comment on this in a year or two but right now those sorts of partners I could count on one hand (excluding the thumb). Without that partner you are more or less dancing for yourself in those moments so I would rather choose smiles and conquests - perhaps 'challenges' would be a better word in this case - and have fun than experience nothing at all.

Feelings... there is a vast array of feelings each night... they can absorb musical lure with ease, and even if skill is not present to diversify the body's motion to musical structure, their mental state more than makes up for a lack of skill. Yes!! To expand on this. Seeing the eyes as the window to the soul (as the saying goes) you soon forget about smiles and styling when you realise that your partners eyes are doing all the talking. Sometimes it's mutual attraction, sometimes it's a shared love for the song you are both dancing too but still, it's all in the eyes. The most memorable dances regardless of skill have always come from a partner who is present in the spirit of the moment. With the right eye contact often the basics are all you need. The other things (styling, tricks etc) add a nice flavour - a little spice.
When there is no emotional connection then skill becomes the substitute for that missing link. It becomes about 'fun', "Impress me, I'm good and want to be challenged". That's not making fun out to be a lesser thing than passion, let's be clear about that. I'm just talking about fun in the context of this discussion. I love athletic dances but personally they don't compare to an emotionally connected dance where a person opens themselves up to that type of communication.

Which conveniently leads too...

The emotions of non-emotional dancers are monotone. They can be summed into one feeling; fun. How did that make you feel? ah, fun. How was the dance? Fun. How is it hitting that pattern? Fun! Did you realize that the song is about the death of a man's brother and how it impacted the family? Oh, I didn't know that!Solid points B. Honestly, it's good to be made aware of this perspective. It makes you wonder about how much your ego/self-fulfilment really comes into play when you take into account what you've said. I'm trying to figure out how this discussion will translate onto the dance floor; what effect it will have.
Maybe here is a start. Instead of approaching each dance with the question "Ok, what can you do..."? Maybe it would be better to approach each dance with "Ok, who are you"?
Thanks, that was eye opening!

We've reshaped fun to feel like there is some type of validation to our actions. We need to think to actually believe we feel... makes me wanna yawn.Wow. You've definitely forced me to question what 'fun' really means in this sense. You've made some strong points.
As a sidenote: I've given up on the quest for the 'level up'. Wooh, I'm in the advanced class, fantastic...what now? I don't care for that feeling of having 'arrived'. To me advanced is just a label that says, "Well done, you've made it this far...now the learning really starts". It's fun to pull off advanced patterns, it's nice to have the skills to be able to dance with everyone but if that's all it's about then what's to stop you from getting bored and moving on to the next challenge? There is only so much you can fit into 5 minutes before it becomes ridiculous so there has to be more to it than that. To dance or watch a beautiful 'basic' dance proves that there is more. Perhaps it's only when your skill level frees your mind from focussing on 'the where' that we can really see some of what we've discussed come into play and express the whys?

[Claire_Brummell]

Just to throw my two cents in, I think that when we use terms like 'fun' and 'passion' we have to realise that these mean, not only different things to different people, but also can have different meanings to the same person in different situations.

To me, there has to be passion to enjoy a dance. But to me there are different types of passion:
- Passion for the music - From feeling the drum beat pumping through your veins to feeling the melody caress your heart dependent on the type of song it is. Expression of that music is moving in a way that is indescribable. I don't speak Spanish, and I don't feel that I have to (though I'm going to try to learn, just so that I can sing along!) - the rhythm, the beat, the melody, the key, the harmony, the expressionism of the musicians including the vocalist tell me how to move to the music.
- Passion for the dance - Feeling the exhileration of the connection to the moves, that each move is not merely a movement, but an expression of an emotion be that lust, joy, sadness, excitement, or pure unadulterated fun.
- Passion for the connection - That electricity which courses through you when you realise that you are completely and totally in sync with your dance partner. That you're both dancing smooth and sensual, or frantic and explosive.
- Passion for fun / laughter - The 'fun' factor - being able to play with the dance, laugh with your partner, beam from within throughout an entire track.
- Passion for intensity - Feeling that burning intensity, either from the music, the moves, your partner or from within.
- Passion for your partner - A chemistry and passion for the person you're dancing with which enables you to express that feeling through your movements.
The list is endless...and for the passion to work, it has to be mutual.

It's almost like the principal of finding a partner in life, there are different elements which can make you feel a passion. Dancing with someone who brings any one of these elements is great and can leave you buzzing.

Finding someone who combines them all - well that might just be the perfect partner....

[chrisk]

I hope you two don't mind if I chime into your discussion.


What characterises a musically passionate dancer as opposed the other? I'd say I'm a bit of both really, depending on who my partner is at the time. Even if my body can't keep up with what is going on inside the music definitely has an emotional effect that can't be categorised. I'd love to hear others thoughts on the interpretation of which type of dancer you are...


Well, reading your discussion with boriken about the passionate and the other dancer, I wonder if one can classify a dancer simply as passionate or other. Is it for a passionate dancer really possible to always bite the lure and really feel the emotion that the music produces in them? Also how much is the music that we are listening to and the people that we dance with influencing us, when we start the journey to become a passionate dancer? Or isn't there some journey that we can take to become a passionate dancer and really notice all the feelings that the music produces in us?

Also I tend to think that the person we're dancing with is going to have an influence. What would happen if a passionate dancer is dancing with an other dancer, who is considered to be non-emotional? Would the passion of this dancer be as much as visible as when he's dancing with another passionate dancer?

But if I have to try to interpret what kind of dancer I am, then I hope to be a least a little bit of passionate dancer. Dependong on my dance partner and the music, that I'm hearing and dancing too, it's amazing what you're feeling in that moment and how you want it to stay. But then I've also had dances which I would just consider to be fun. But it might be wrong and if boriken would see me dance, describe me just as a non-emotional dancer. So I can only guess what kind of dancer I might be, rather then knowing for sure.


I thought someone might choose the first to take the opportunity to develop more chemistry through the music. Maybe it wasn't clear enough that there was some chemistry (just not as much) with the first dancer.


I think it was clear, but I think that developing more chemistry with somebody with whom you have only 'a little' will need more time then just one song. If you're going to have several dances with that person it's possible that you're going to develop more chemistry. But it takes in my opinion just a partner with whom you've good a lot of chemistry to turn dancing to a mediocre song into a great dance.


Think of it this way. Loads of random sexual encounters, each of then taking you to bliss and back, then one day you fall in love and feel lovemaking. Would you trade all of your random sexual encounters for that one that made your world seem like a fairy-tale? Experience has told me that I could do away with all of them, just to feel that one. To feel the one that tells me that my heart can't feel any more passion because it isn't passion itself. Then again, some never get to feel love so the best to hope for is bliss, beyond that, they might just not get a chance...


Well, does it really have to be trade-off between the random sexual encounters and the one like fairy-tale? I tend to think that while some (maybe most?) of us hope for the fairy-tale encounter, they're going to expierence quite some of those random sexual encounters. So, the random sexual encounters are in my opinion a way of getting a first feel of what that fairy-tale one is going to be. But I tend to agree with you that if somebody really experienced that fairy-tale one, they would prefer that one.


With experience, it will be realized that feelings teach you what dancing is about. Your ability to overfill a song with skill will lessen simply because feeling your heart explode before percussive madness is more fulfilling than smiles and egotistical conquests.


As I was just reading this, some recent experiences come to my mind. Thinking about the experience and your statement, I tend to agree that going by your feelings less can be more. But I think your just need a connection with your dance partner and not somebody special. It might just be that with a partner with whom you've got a lot of chemistry (or what do you consider a special partner?), it's going to be easier to share that feeling. But that feeling will in my opinion be there as it's depending on the 'percussive madness' and not necessarily your partner.


I'm trying to figure out how this discussion will translate onto the dance floor; what effect it will have.
Maybe here is a start. Instead of approaching each dance with the question "Ok, what can you do..."? Maybe it would be better to approach each dance with "Ok, who are you"?


I don't think it's necessary to think what effect this discussion might have on your dancing as it will definitely have one. So rather then spending to much time thinking about the effects, just go out and dance. All those discussion will influence your heart and mind and they will start to effect your dancing. While you might not see that change for sometime, you'll reach someday the point where you can see the effect. :)

[borikenSalsero]

Just to throw my two cents in, I think that when we use terms like 'fun' and 'passion' we have to realise that these mean, not only different things to different people, but also can have different meanings to the same person in different situations.

Feelings are independant of a person's thoughts about them, your reference speaks about the application of feelings to different situations, and the thoughts about how those situations feel.

Regardless of an event or thoughts about the event, a passionate person will recognize the same feelings when presented by another person even if one considers the event of which is being spoken about, emotion-less. Meaning that love is easily recognizable even if the application of the feeling is disagreed upon.

In all, people don't see nor think differently of a feeling, rather attach emotions to different situations, and when speaking of the feelings they are not really speaking of the emotions, rather conveying their thoughts of how the event makes them feel.

There are feelings
There are thoughts
There are events
There are actions

All independent.

As an example. Let's say "Something" is fun. You fill in the "something", and we'll soon have a million "something" list. Why? because we are speaking about that "something" that makes us feel fun, not what fun feels like. Hence, everyone’s ability to fill in the "something". We all know fun, even if it is outside of dancing.

In a sense, anyone who's ever had fun, or felt passion can join this thread and eloquently speak of passion without a need to know what salsa dancing is... It is an inability to independently speak about feelings that make us assume that our thoughts on feelings and actions are feelings themselves.

All the examples you provided differ in the “something” not the feeling... So, I agree in the sense that passion can be felt in any event or any action. Note that had passion been different on each, that particular event would always be needed to feel passion.

[Claire_Brummell]

I think I follow your train of thought here (but do correct me if I've misunderstood!), and I do agree that these are different situations that make you feel empassioned, however I would dispute that the feelings experienced which are defined as "of passion" are the same.

I absolutely accept that someone who is not a dancer, will be able to identify with and relate to the passion experienced by a dancer, but that's not to say that all passion experienced by all people feels the same. The feelings I experience in the above situations can be quite different.

The feeling that I experience through my passion of music for example does differ physically to that felt through a connection to another dancer. The differences may be minor, but they are nevertheless notable. They are both 'of passion' and yet the feelings are distinctively different. It's hard to define or explain as they're feelings, but for example they could come from a different place or feel physically, or even emotionally different, but both are linked to a passion.

It's like the distinction between love for a pet and love for a partner. They are both love, but the feeling experienced is very different...in my experience.

[Flujo]

Just to throw my two cents in, I think that when we use terms like 'fun' and 'passion' we have to realise that these mean, not only different things to different people, but also can have different meanings to the same person in different situations.

To me, there has to be passion to enjoy a dance. But to me there are different types of passion:
- Passion for the music - From feeling the drum beat pumping through your veins to feeling the melody caress your heart dependent on the type of song it is.
Wouldn't all the other forms stem from the source - the music. Surely all the others could be experienced elsewhere if that's not the case. What I'm trying to get at is; what makes you want to make that connection in the first place. What is that thing that makes you want to get up and seek out someone else to share that strange compulsion to dance with? I'm wondering if the music can sometimes be the excuse that allows people to feel something through the other things you mentioned. If that's true then I also wonder why Salsa is so popular and why some dance teachers haven't got together to created a partner dance for Pop music. There has to be something in this music that strikes a deeper chord.


Well, reading your discussion with boriken about the passionate and the other dancer, I wonder if one can classify a dancer simply as passionate or other. Is it for a passionate dancer really possible to always bite the lure and really feel the emotion that the music produces in them?
Hope there wasn't any confusion there chrisk. I meant 'other' to mean the type of dancer that has a passion for having fun, not that the two are exclusive. Some songs you might not relate to you (or vise-versa) so in that case you'll have fun (in the sense that's been discussed) and do what you can do for 5 minutes. You asked a good question chrisk, hopefully that's the answer you were looking for. I think sometimes external influences can cause that spark to misfire as well. It could be a lack of connection with your partner, people bumping into you, anything takes your attention away from the moment. By lure you mean that thing that grips you and makes time stand still right? ;)

I agree that it's mainly the chemistry with your partner that allows that 'thing' to happen. Thinking about this I'm wondering how different it would be dancing with someone who is unaware of the feeling of the music and how it can influence them and a highly skilled dancer who is strictly motivated by conquest (to borrow a word from Boriken). Or maybe that is confusing the difference between having a little chemistry and no chemistry. Hmm?

In the eyes of some partners there is this small flame - call it spirit, call it whatever. For me it's the music that gives you the fuel for that flame. The only other way I can think of describing it is to see the music as the light source and you as a prism. When it hits you, you get to reveal all the different colours it contains and your partner will either respond in kind or simply see those colours as one shade of grey.

It's up to you how you express yourself. Nobody can (or should) dictate how you show your appreciation for something but I would at the very least take this into serious consideration...
How did that make you feel? ah, fun. How was the dance? Fun. How is it hitting that pattern? Fun! Did you realize that the song is about the death of a man's brother and how it impacted the family? Oh, I didn't know that!
...it's worth thinking about isn't it?

[Claire_Brummell]

Wouldn't all the other forms stem from the source - the music. Surely all the others could be experienced elsewhere if that's not the case. What I'm trying to get at is; what makes you want to make that connection in the first place. What is that thing that makes you want to get up and seek out someone else to share that strange compulsion to dance with? I'm wondering if the music can sometimes be the excuse that allows people to feel something through the other things you mentioned. If that's true then I also wonder why Salsa is so popular and why some dance teachers haven't got together to created a partner dance for Pop music. There has to be something in this music that strikes a deeper chord.


My suggestion would be that the music is the catalyst rather than the pure source of the passion necessarily - I agree that it certainly enhances and gives the passion a certain 'flavour' and therefore it has a unique effect when compared to something more 'middle of the road' music.

[chrisk]

Hope there wasn't any confusion there chrisk. I meant 'other' to mean the type of dancer that has a passion for having fun, not that the two are exclusive. Some songs you might not relate to you (or vise-versa) so in that case you'll have fun (in the sense that's been discussed) and do what you can do for 5 minutes. You asked a good question chrisk, hopefully that's the answer you were looking for.


It's not really the answer that I look for. I agree with you that the two aren't exclusive, but is it possible for a dancer to just find into one of those two categories? I tend to think even if you are dedicated to being mostly passionate about the music, you'll also have some passion for fun. So even with a 'song you might not relate to', I think that you can have passion about the music as you get into it while dancing.


I think sometimes external influences can cause that spark to misfire as well. It could be a lack of connection with your partner, people bumping into you, anything takes your attention away from the moment. By lure you mean that thing that grips you and makes time stand still right? ;)


I'm not sure, I'm rather referring to the point that boriken made, where he mentioned that 'a musically passionate dancer' 'can absorb musical lure with ease'. So I'm wondering if such a dancer can always bite the lure or if he's also going to miss sometimes.


I agree that it's mainly the chemistry with your partner that allows that 'thing' to happen.


I'm not sure if isn't rather the music itself that is the reason why the 'thing' is happening. But due to the chemistry with our dance partner we can notice it easier as without. Have you never heared some songs and got the feeling that you want this moment to stay?

[Flujo]

Glad we mostly disagree this time around. hehe ;)
It's not really the answer that I look for. I agree with you that the two aren't exclusive, but is it possible for a dancer to just find into one of those two categories?
Maybe. Personally, if the the music doesn't do it then it still won't when dancing with a great partner. It would then be about the connection and floor sports or with the right kind of chemistry flirtation and teasing.

I'm not sure, I'm rather referring to the point that boriken made, where he mentioned that 'a musically passionate dancer' 'can absorb musical lure with ease'. So I'm wondering if such a dancer can always bite the lure or if he's also going to miss sometimes.Not all the time. You might be tired; there might not be anyone you'd like to dance with or something like that. That's what I meant by other influences. Even so, there is nothing to stop you from sitting/standing and losing yourself in the moment. Did that when first hearing El Cantante in a club. The string section is MMmmm :)

I'm not sure if isn't rather the music itself that is the reason why the 'thing' is happening. But due to the chemistry with our dance partner we can notice it easier as without. Have you never heared some songs and got the feeling that you want this moment to stay?Yep!! :) Maybe that's one of the things that keep us coming back for more. A moment shared...?

[chrisk]

Maybe. Personally, if the the music doesn't do it then it still won't when dancing with a great partner. It would then be about the connection and floor sports or with the right kind of chemistry flirtation and teasing.


Hm, so when you are usually mostly passionate about the music, you suddenly switch to be mostly passionate about having fun? I think that if you're mostly passionate about the music, then dancing with a great partner can do it. But then again I'm curious what boriken thinks about this.


Not all the time. You might be tired; there might not be anyone you'd like to dance with or something like that. That's what I meant by other influences. Even so, there is nothing to stop you from sitting/standing and losing yourself in the moment. Did that when first hearing El Cantante in a club. The string section is MMmmm :)


If I understand it right, then the musical lure is not only about bodymovement and partner dancing, but also about your mental state. So having nobody to dance with, doesn't seem to me like an influence on biting the musical lure.

[Flujo]

I wouldn't say "suddenly switch". It's not really a flicker switch you can use to change modes. This is a little hard to explain but would say that when the musical lure isn't there it feels more like practice and and the dance is more like an activity than a dream. With good chemistry you can make it more than just floor sports but without the music it still isn't the same. Does that make sense?

Agreed that not having anyone to dance with wouldn't stop you from experiencing the lure but it takes a special kind of song to grab you like that. :)

[borikenSalsero]

They are both 'of passion' and yet the feelings are distinctively different. It's hard to define or explain as they're feelings, but for example they could come from a different place or feel physically, or even emotionally different, but both are linked to a passion.

My point is that 'of passion' is not synonymous to 'is passion'. To say that the butterflies in my stomach are from anxiety, isn't the same as stating that anxiety is butterfly in the stomach. Which would then lead to more incorrect reads of feelings, such as saying that because my hands are sweaty and the butterflies are absent, I'm feeling a different type of anxiety. Anxiety is anxiety, just as passion is passion, how it manifests in the body speaks not of one changing feeling, but of a diversity of feelings caused by it... It's as if I were to say that the same car in the dark is different during the day because during the day the color is visibly different.

While "symptoms of" might be dependent on source, they do not mean the source; rather side effects attributed to the source.

[chrisk]

I wouldn't say "suddenly switch". It's not really a flicker switch you can use to change modes. This is a little hard to explain but would say that when the musical lure isn't there it feels more like practice and and the dance is more like an activity than a dream. With good chemistry you can make it more than just floor sports but without the music it still isn't the same. Does that make sense?


Hm, but why do you think it feels like practice? I tend to think it might feel more like dancing on autopilot. So instead of letting the feelings that the music creates in your body and mind be the guide for your dance, you end up in in way of being a 'pattern monkey'. Also isn't is possible that the chemistry between your partner and you can become a kind of appetizer and leading you to suddenly bit the lure?

[Flujo]

My suggestion would be that the music is the catalyst rather than the pure source of the passion necessarily - I agree that it certainly enhances and gives the passion a certain 'flavour' and therefore it has a unique effect when compared to something more 'middle of the road' music.
That's the one!
I think that might also partly answer your question chrisk. "No catalyst no reaction" was going to be my original comment but that isn't quite right as a catalyst - after a little reading (science class was too long ago to remember) - speeds up a reaction rather creates it.

Sure, there could be physical attraction or similar personalities at play that would allow you both to lose yourselves in each other but that would still be about the activity rather than the reaction to something greater than you. You could say that the action/chemistry of partner dancing is accelerated to a point where it causes you to move beyond just the activity. I'd imagine that with the music as the catalyst the reaction becomes self sustaining and requires little conscious effort from either partner. You move beyond your 'self' into a greater field and includes the energy of both your partner, yourself and the music.

Perhaps this is where trying to define that 'thing' get's a bit fuzzy because it's not something we can put our hands on. We'd need to be telepathic/empathic and project the feeling to another person so I'm not sure if it's even possible to describe using words.

"Also isn't is possible that the chemistry between your partner and you can become a kind of appetizer and leading you to suddenly bit the lure?"

I understand what you are saying now. Yes, definitely! I still think that the 'music as the catalyst' idea is essential though. The reaction needs that catalyst in order to accelerate whatever is going on in our minds to that transitional point between action - in the sense that Boriken described, and reaction - our unconscious emotional response to the music in relation to each other.

Are we still talking about Salsa? :)

[chrisk]

Sure, there could be physical attraction or similar personalities at play that would allow you both to lose yourselves in each other but that would still be about the activity rather than the reaction to something greater than you. You could say that the action/chemistry of partner dancing is accelerated to a point where it causes you to move beyond just the activity. I'd imagine that with the music as the catalyst the reaction becomes self sustaining and requires little conscious effort from either partner. You move beyond your 'self' into a greater field and includes the energy of both your partner, yourself and the music.

Perhaps this is where trying to define that 'thing' get's a bit fuzzy because it's not something we can put our hands on. We'd need to be telepathic/empathic and project the feeling to another person so I'm not sure if it's even possible to describe using words.
[...]
Are we still talking about Salsa? :)

Sure, we've just focussed on the connection between passion, music and the dancer and let's see where we head next. :)

I find it interesting, how you talk about the music as being the catalyst to some reaction between the dance partners. But what about those moments in the club or at home, where you're hearing some nice tune and decide to go for some solo grooving? Can't there be some passion in your dancing then as well? In those situations there's no partner and therefo no reaction for which the music can be a catalyst.

Maybe it's better to think about the music as some kind of key? But I'm not sure about that analogy either. I think I might agree with you that it's at least difficult (maybe even impossible?) to find some analogy for the music and how it influences us and our dancing.

Isn't dancing for us about more then just hearing the music and throwing some (crazy?) patterns at our partner and later repeat that process with somebody else? Isn't dancing for us about feeling the music in our heart and mind and create varios feelings as boriken mentioned? So, if you want to keep the chemical aspect, the music is becoming rather a partner for the reaction that creates the feelings then just being a catalyst.

So, maybe it's best to just think of the music as being one (big?) influence in being a passionate and emotional dancer?

But let's also try to take it a bit back to salsa: Is the passion (and emotions) in our dancing the source of the often talked about 'flavour' that one can see in some dancer?

P.S.: Hm, maybe this postings sound a bit weird, but I just felt like revisiting this slightly older thread with some (maybe new) thoughts.

[Flujo]

I find it interesting, how you talk about the music as being the catalyst to some reaction between the dance partners.I think Claire was onto something with the catalyst idea but it's never easy trying to define the undefinable anyway. Reading your questions I kept thinking that I don't have a clue, which is true, but there is no harm in trying to break things down I suppose. Being an analytical type it's almost impossible not to give it try.

When you talk about the music acting as a kind of key is that in reference to 'lock and key theory' (http://www.elmhurst.edu/%7Echm/vchembook/571lockkey.html)? That would make more sense than the idea of the music being only the catalyst so it's good you brought that up!

If we switch it around we could say that the music is the key that unlocks our emotions. We could also say that as dance partners we also act as the catalyst for each other. On the flip side poor chemistry could inhibit the flow of the key - the influence of the music or in our chemistry example, the substrate in 'lock and key theory' (http://www.elmhurst.edu/%7Echm/vchembook/571lockkey.html). Are there any chemistry grads who can see the connection here?

So, maybe it's best to just think of the music as being one (big?) influence in being a passionate and emotional dancer? It's why we dance. ;) Perhaps some of us start of with this music because we love to dance but soon realise that things have changed and we begin to dance because we love the music. At the moment I LOVE to dance but have started to love (rather than just enjoy) the music too. I wonder if we sometimes confuse the love of dancing with the love of, and passion for the music we're dancing too?

It is one 'big' influence on being a passionate and emotional dancer, I agree. I think it's when you start to love the music, that's when you are potentially a passionate dancer. To be clear, are we talking purely about emotion? Just wanted to clarify that because it's easy to assume that passion automatically comes with the ability to express it. That's not necessarily true. When you're a child you're desire to walk comes long before your ability. I think it's the same with the expression of the emotions music stirs up in us. It takes (a long?) time to learn...

But let's also try to take it a bit back to salsa: Is the passion (and emotions) in our dancing the source of the often talked about 'flavour' that one can see in some dancer? I think so. Salsa equals sauce/spice/flavour, right? We could go back to what we talked about before. That thing about having control and being considerate when great track is on. Our passion has the potential to make us lose control. Perhaps the flavour in our dance is a result of our ability to find a balance between passion and control?

These posts might be a bit weird but weird can be wonderful when it doesn't scare little children or furry woodland animals. It's all completely harmless. :)

[chrisk]

I think Claire was onto something with the catalyst idea but it's never easy trying to define the undefinable anyway. Reading your questions I kept thinking that I don't have a clue, which is true, but there is no harm in trying to break things down I suppose. Being an analytical type it's almost impossible not to give it try.


I'm not sure if we really talk about the undefinable here or if there's just no real matching analogy for the music and it's influence, etc. Maybe any analogy that we think of will only describe some aspect of the music and there are multiple analogys that are true?

Also I'm not sure if you really lack the clue or if we're just exploring some 'unknown' territory that is seldomly talked about. Looking at borikens post where he talked about fun and passion and how they are different, So I guess we talk here about an issue that is seldomly talked about and where we need to think about various options and interpretations before finding the right one.


When you talk about the music acting as a kind of key is that in reference to 'lock and key theory' (http://www.elmhurst.edu/%7Echm/vchembook/571lockkey.html)? That would make more sense than the idea of the music being only the catalyst so it's good you brought that up!

If we switch it around we could say that the music is the key that unlocks our emotions. We could also say that as dance partners we also act as the catalyst for each other. On the flip side poor chemistry could inhibit the flow of the key - the influence of the music or in our chemistry example, the substrate in 'lock and key theory' (http://www.elmhurst.edu/%7Echm/vchembook/571lockkey.html). Are there any chemistry grads who can see the connection here?


I wasn't really thinking about that chemical/biological theory, more about the key and lock on the door to your home.:) But then after thinking more about it, I wonder if maybe the music can be seen as a key and as a catalyst. Not only is the music going to unlock the emotions in us, but isn't it also influencing how we notice and feel those emotions?

But if you think of the idea of the dance partner being the catalyst, is poor chemistry between the dance partners really hindering the flow of the key? Or is the poor chemistry just influencing your communication with the dance partner? And what about those moments where we're solo grooving? There's no dance partner as a catalyst, but the 'reaction' taking place can happen as fast with a dance partner.


It's why we dance. ;) Perhaps some of us start of with this music because we love to dance but soon realise that things have changed and we begin to dance because we love the music. At the moment I LOVE to dance but have started to love (rather than just enjoy) the music too. I wonder if we sometimes confuse the love of dancing with the love of, and passion for the music we're dancing too?


You're asking a very interesting question here. If we consider your assumption to be true, wouldn't we notice this mistake when we try to just listen to the music without taking any steps?


It is one 'big' influence on being a passionate and emotional dancer, I agree. I think it's when you start to love the music, that's when you are potentially a passionate dancer.


I wouldn't say that you are a 'potentially passionate dancer' when you start to love the music. Rather the begin of the love affair with the music is the first step on the road to become a passionate dancer. But if you continue your exposure to the music, your love affair will continue, go deeper and you someday reach the point where you're a 'potentially passionate dancer'.


To be clear, are we talking purely about emotion? Just wanted to clarify that because it's easy to assume that passion automatically comes with the ability to express it. That's not necessarily true. When you're a child you're desire to walk comes long before your ability. I think it's the same with the expression of the emotions music stirs up in us. It takes (a long?) time to learn...


Right, passion is only one very specific of a vast array of emotions. So I'm mostly talking about the emotions that the music creates. And only sometimes stray into the specific emotion named passion, but then I try to make it obvious.


I think so. Salsa equals sauce/spice/flavour, right? We could go back to what we talked about before. That thing about having control and being considerate when great track is on. Our passion has the potential to make us lose control. Perhaps the flavour in our dance is a result of our ability to find a balance between passion and control?


Not completely, salsa means sauce, but spice would be especia and flavour is rather the often talked about sabor. ;)

But I don't want to get back to talk about control and being considerate again. While both is recommended to keep your follow happy, it's not responsible for passion in your dance or showing passion. I was rather thinking if there's any connection between the passion in our dance and the often mentioned 'flavour' that you can see in some dancers. But is that flavour really a result of balance between passion and control? Do we need to control our passion or not just our movement and let our passion run free? Is maybe the flavour that we see in some dancing or in some people related to the passion that they developed for the music?


These posts might be a bit weird but weird can be wonderful when it doesn't scare little children or furry woodland animals. It's all completely harmless. :)


Right, but I wonder how many members of SF have been afraid of us and are afraid of dancing with us in the future. :) But then again it's for me just about exploiting and trying to understand the emotional side of the music.

Damn, those posts start to get longer again.

[antigone]

fyi, I did follow your pedantic musings for a while, but got a bit uninterested (euphemism, hehe)...no judgement, though, whatever floats your boat. Will still dance :)

[Flujo]

Maybe any analogy that we think of will only describe some aspect of the music and there are multiple analogys that are true?
That's probably true.

I wonder if maybe the music can be seen as a key and as a catalyst.I kind of responded to your post backwards (last to first) so if you read the response below I've tried to put things a different way by describing in terms of energy rather than chemistry. Hopefully it makes more sense that way. Your example of opening doors works well. Especially if you see the opening of multiple doors as the key to increasing the flow of emotion during a dance. You could have a door for each of the senses, doors for different aspects of the music and so on.

You're asking a very interesting question here. If we consider your assumption to be true, wouldn't we notice this mistake when we try to just listen to the music without taking any steps? Sure. I'm still not clear on the distinction between between passion for the music and passion for dancing or even if there is one. This one has me stumped. Once again, you think you understand something only to realise you don't have a clue.

Going back to a post by Salseralon: "I have been thinking about this post, my question is, where should the source of passion come from? Is it the 2 individuals love of the dance, or passion that 2 dancers feel for each other to make the salsa passion seem real."
http://www.salsaforums.com/showpost.php?p=6333&postcount=3
Maybe it 'is' all about emotion. Maybe music is simply the expression of raw emotion that when played becomes entangled with our own feelings which is why it is so hard to talk about without going around in circles like ants on a Möbius strip :). Maybe they are one in the same. Dance is the visual/physical, music is the aural. So to answer you question, we don't need music to be passionate dancers but music certainly amplifies whatever we feel without it. Just as a partner amplifies and changes what we feel compared to when dancing alone.

Back to the energy aspect. Maybe there is no need for a distinction. It's all energy (light, sound, vibrations). When we are exposed to energies with familiar and pleasing vibrations to our own then those energies are amplified within us. It could be your partner, the music or both. Perhaps on some level being a passionate dancer is about being aware of this effect and letting it influence your actions in a positive way. We could say that a potentially passionate dancer would have an awareness of the effect music & dance have on them. The next step would be to learn how to express it; to translate the emotional into the visual.

Right, passion is only one very specific of a vast array of emotions. So I'm mostly talking about the emotions that the music creates. And only sometimes stray into the specific emotion named passion, but then I try to make it obvious.I'm not sure what you mean chrisk...could you put it a different way?

Not completely, salsa means sauce, but spice would be especia and flavour is rather the often talked about sabor. Thanks. Sauce has flavour though doesn't it? Sauce can be spicy as well as sweet. It can be many things depending on your taste. Sensual, hot, racy, mellow, take your pick.

I was rather thinking if there's any connection between the passion in our dance and the often mentioned 'flavour' that you can see in some dancers.Isn't flavour a product of expression? Trust me, it would be a little scary for some to let their passion run free on a crowded floor, especially if you are excitable or a bit of a nutter. :)


Right, but I wonder how many members of SF have been afraid of us and are afraid of dancing with us in the future. But then again it's for me just about exploiting and trying to understand the emotional side of the music.Hahaha. I hear you chrisk. There's nothing wrong with trying to understand something you are curious about even if it does make people think you are weird.
And yes, the posts are getting longer again. This one is huge! We don't have to reply to 'everything' you know even though it's hard to see anything in your posts that can be left without a response. I did try to merge some questions into one so if I've missed any of your points please let me know.

The philosophy of dance through 21st century technology!

[Flujo]

fyi, I did follow your pedantic musings for a while, but got a bit uninterested (euphemism, hehe)...no judgement, though, whatever floats your boat. Will still dance :)Haha, say what you mean love. I could see how all this would be pretty boring to a lot of people. It's not really something you talk about is it. It's more something you go out and experience. I suppose you could compare it to having a lengthy discussion about eating a huge, rich, creamy chocolate cake with a cherry filling. MMMmmmm. Who wants to talk about that...you'd rather just eat it. Then again, where do the cherries come from, what's the consistency of the cream, dark or milk chocolate, topping or no topping, hand mix or food processor. You catch my drift... ;)

Looking through the old posts the discussions never really lasted more than a month anyway. Ah well. Different strokes...

[aliba]

Your example of opening doors works well. Especially if you see the opening of multiple doors as the key to increasing the flow of emotion during a dance. You could have a door for each of the senses, doors for different aspects of the music and so on.


I've been following this thread with some interest for a while now; it hits close to home since I've longed to understand passion--its provenance, its power--for many years now. While I can identify with the excitement of that certain catalytic tremor brought on by a powerful song, for me the music is in no way the only key to a passionate dance.

And believe, I love a passionate dance.

I like Flujo's reference to a series of doors, which isn't too dissimilar from my own mental image of layers progressively being peeled away: if you take an onion, for instance, the outer skin is dry, flaking, and dull. It's not wholly unpleasant, but there is certainly something better to be found just beneath the surface if you put forth the slightest effort to discover it. The deeper you go, with each successive layer pulled back, the juicier, the plumper, the shinier, the sweeter things get until you reach the center core. If you've ever danced in an onion's heart, well, it's enough to make you cry ;-)

The layers aren't locked in static positions, and there may be different layers to each dance, but usually I find that eye contact, physical connection, a visible love for the music and dance, musicality, and non-verbal communication leave my heart throbbing hardest.

I've been told that I'm a very expressive dancer, but it is not a given. On more than one occasion, a guy has asked me why I'm being "so serious" while dancing with him. Truthfully, it requires a lot of effort on my part to inject feeling into the dance if I don't have a good song to work with and if the guy doesn't feed me any form of communication--a sideways glance, a sparkling eye, a warm smile--anything to hint that they feel something deeper than a desire to execute a few moves. The dance stays on that outermost layer, thin and dry, and while being perfectly pleasant, it doesn't open any doors to passion

[sweavo]

I've been told that I'm a very expressive dancer, but it is not a given. On more than one occasion, a guy has asked me why I'm being "so serious" while dancing with him. Truthfully, it requires a lot of effort on my part to inject feeling into the dance if I don't have a good song to work with and if the guy doesn't feed me any form of communication--a sideways glance, a sparkling eye, a warm smile--anything to hint that they feel something deeper than a desire to execute a few moves. The dance stays on that outermost layer, thin and dry, and while being perfectly pleasant, it doesn't open any doors to passion


** books self on plane to baltimore **

[antigone]

I've been told that I'm a very expressive dancer, but it is not a given. On more than one occasion, a guy has asked me why I'm being "so serious" while dancing with him. Truthfully, it requires a lot of effort on my part to inject feeling into the dance if I don't have a good song to work with and if the guy doesn't feed me any form of communication--a sideways glance, a sparkling eye, a warm smile--anything to hint that they feel something deeper than a desire to execute a few moves. The dance stays on that outermost layer, thin and dry, and while being perfectly pleasant, it doesn't open any doors to passion

I bet I'll get there before sweavo. I'm going to be in Baltimore in October. You've got to let me know what the good places are (The only place I knew, Gardel's, closed down last time I went). And maybe we can meet up.

[chrisk]

Before I'm going to respond, I'ld like to thank aliba for chiming in this discussion. Also I'm going to try to keep this post a bit shorter then the last one. And for the ladies, who are reading this, don't be afraid to dancing with us. We're just trying to dissect a bit the passion in our dance to understand it more. But we're still two nice guys, who can hopefully give any lady a great time on the dancefloor. :)

I agree with you about the idea of see the music as key that fits to multiple doors, but I don't agree with the idea of an increased flow of emotion. I rather tend to think that opening those doors is going to increase and enhance the emotions that you feel in the music. So if you someday manage to mold the key to open all doors, you've reached the 'onion's heart' that aliba mentioned and you fell all those emotions that the music creates in you.


I'm still not clear on the distinction between between passion for the music and passion for dancing or even if there is one. This one has me stumped. Once again, you think you understand something only to realise you don't have a clue.


I agree with you as I've found it difficult to understand all those distinction, between passion for music and dancing, as well as the one with dancing and fun which boriken mentioned. But I strongly believe that there's a distinction between it, especially music and dance. Just think of all those people who enjoy listening to the music (ie. Berzin in the thread about Two albums I know nothing about (http://www.salsaforums.com/showthread.php?t=8116)). Those people seem to have a strong passion for the music, but non for dancing. But I wonder if you can find people with a a strong passion for dancing, but none for the music.

I tend to agree with you that music has it's own emotions, which we can feel when we carefully listen to it. So I suppose that those emotions are at least partly influencing our dancing and our emotions, which then can lead us to the point where we're having passion in our dance.

But I don't think that this is the reason why it's so difficult to talk about all this. But since you started to mentioning the issue of energy, I tend to wonder if something like the wave-particle duality is going to apply to the music as well. In this concept both matter and energy are going to have both wave- and particle-like properties. So maybe there's a similar concept to music that explains why we've got problems finding a single matching analogy. Going with the wave-particle-duality, we could say that music has different aspects or properties, where the emotions could maybe be one aspect but the key another.

If I stay in that field of physics, I also come to think about Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and if it might apply to our discussion as well. The principle is about the problem that if you're going to define the position of a particle, the velocity of that particle is becoming uncertain. And if you're going to instead measure now the velocity of the particle, you're going to be uncertain about the position. So applying this to our discussion, I wonder if maybe we're in a similar situation. When we focus on one aspect of the music and try to define it, we tend to become uncertain about other aspects. So we can never really focus on all aspects at all as we're always going to be uncertain about everything we aren't looking at that moment.

I know this sounds a bit far-fetched and also very scientific, but I couldn't help thinking about it when you started on the road of energy. But maybe that's one reason why we need to be careful about this discussion going to go into a circle instead of looking at new aspects.

And the later is what I'm going to try now, in this again long post. (I had really hoped to keep it shorter this time, but somehow it doesn't work :()

But before I'm responding to the issue of emotions vs. passion. If we just take a look at an emotion, it's a certain mental and sometimes physiological state of our body and is related to a wide variety of feelings, thoughts and behaviour. Some examples for those emotions would be anger, love, fear, joy or passion. Passion is just one specific emotion, which is often very intense and where we feeling very strong about a person or some task. So I'm mostly talking about emotions in general, as the music is not just creating passion, but other emotions as well. Therefor I'll try to make it obvious when I start to talk about the specific emotion that is named passion. I hope this now a bit more understandable.

So, now I'm trying to give this some new twist and hope to keep it from going into the above mentioned circle. While I agree with you that every sauce has it's own flavour and we often prefer some flavour above others, is the flavour that we see in some dancers really just based on his expression? If you hear people talk about flavour in a dancer, they often tend to give the same names, ie. Tito. It seems to me that those dancers which are often credited with having flavour are those that that also display a lot of passion in their dance. So, is there maybe a connection that people who are passionated in their dance and show it are also going to be those having 'flavour' or 'sabor'? Do people, who are ascribed to have 'flavour' are passionate dancers as well and can this be turned around to say that people who are passionate in their dance have 'flavour'?


P.S.: And I failed miserably in trying to keep this post shorter. :(

[aliba]

** books self on plane to baltimore **

I'm not sure there's all that much to see here in Charm City, but I'd gladly dance with you if you find yourself in the area! I love to travel, too, so chances are someday I'll be in your stomping grounds.

I bet I'll get there before sweavo. I'm going to be in Baltimore in October. You've got to let me know what the good places are (The only place I knew, Gardel's, closed down last time I went). And maybe we can meet up.

I'd love to meet up... PM me a little closer to your arrival, and I'll fill you in. There are a few options, but right now the best is Wednesday night at Club One. I'm hoping that our main Saturday night venue will pick up steam again soon, but in the meantime I've been trekking into DC a lot.

[Flujo]

The deeper you go, with each successive layer pulled back, the juicier, the plumper, the shinier, the sweeter things get until you reach the center core. If you've ever danced in an onion's heart, well, it's enough to make you cry ;-)

The layers aren't locked in static positions, and there may be different layers to each dance, but usually I find that eye contact, physical connection, a visible love for the music and dance, musicality, and non-verbal communication leave my heart throbbing hardest.
Thank you aliba! That's exactly the kind of post I was hoping someone would add to this discussion. Come on people, don't be shy...
Different people have such great ways of interpreting the same thing. When you read someone else's idea it unlocks another door to understanding. Best of all you can use those different ideas to communicate more effectively with people. :-)

I especially like the phrase you used earlier in the post...a "catalytic tremor". The perfect phrase to describe that feeling that chrisk and Boriken called the "musical lure". The lure is most definitely a tremor that comes from within and permeates your entire being.From Dictionary.com:
catalytic
2.an action between two or more persons or forces, initiated by an agent that itself remains unaffected by the action
In our case, during partner dancing the agent mentioned above is the music but our actions can also affect change. Almost a perfect fit ;) Your right though, the music isn't the only key. It takes that connection to make it more than about just you and to peel away those layers. Eye contact is the first thing I look for as it tells me the intentions of my partner. Through personal experience partners that only connect with you in that way after you've engaged them physically don't often inspire passionate dances. It's more about the challenge. So I agree that without the initial connection (how much of that is down to non-dance chemistry I'm not sure) it is a pleasant experience but not much more than that. It's interesting to watch a person dance and notice who or what peels away their layers. Maybe that first layer can be so hard to peel away at times that it actually becomes a barrier to the heart of a dancer?

Imho it's about asking "Who are you?" when you dance with someone. That's one thing that has come out of this thread - a change in approach that has led to so many more connected and passionate dances that it's been well worth the risk of coming across as a weirdo. :-)

It's so nice to have another female perspective and to hear someone talk about the communication and song coming first like you have. And it's is a real pleasure to dance with ladies such as yourself. The difference that connection makes in a dance can be majestic.

P.S
I have a feeling you'll really enjoy your dance with sweavo. ;)

[sweavo]

Imho it's about asking "Who are you?" when you dance with someone. That's one thing that has come out of this thread - a change in approach that has led to so many more connected and passionate dances that it's been well worth the risk of coming across as a weirdo. :-)


A Jedi is born!

P.S
I have a feeling you'll really enjoy your dance with sweavo. ;)

:) the cheque's in the post

[Flujo]

Before I'm going to respond, I'ld like to thank aliba for chiming in this discussion. Also I'm going to try to keep this post a bit shorter then the last one. And for the ladies, who are reading this, don't be afraid to dancing with us. We're just trying to dissect a bit the passion in our dance to understand it more. But we're still two nice guys, who can hopefully give any lady a great time on the dancefloor. :)chrisk is the nice one, I'm a bit of a weirdo... :lol:

I agree with you about the idea of see the music as key that fits to multiple doors, but I don't agree with the idea of an increased flow of emotion. I rather tend to think that opening those doors is going to increase and enhance the emotions that you feel in the music. That's what I meant but you always put is better. ;)

I agree with you as I've found it difficult to understand all those distinction, between passion for music and dancing, as well as the one with dancing and fun which boriken mentioned. But I strongly believe that there's a distinction between it, especially music and dance. Just think of all those people who enjoy listening to the music (ie. Berzin in the thread about Two albums I know nothing about (http://www.salsaforums.com/showthread.php?t=8116)). Those people seem to have a strong passion for the music, but non for dancing. But I wonder if you can find people with a a strong passion for dancing, but none for the music. Hmm. That would be hard to imagine as it's so alien to me. I think you can dance passionately to music you enjoy but to music that stirs up no emotions at all? I'm not so sure.

It's a tough one. The problem is that a partner dancing has so many variables that it's almost impossible to measure one against the other. It's a bit like trying to define God in scientific terms. Can you define the source when you don't understand the creation and can you define the creation when don't understand the source? We have a 1001 different religions for that same reason.

You mentioned Heisenberg's uncertainty principle (the other theory was beyond me). I had to do a little reading to get an overview but it does make sense when applied to a social dance. Is it the music, is it your partner, is it you? It's all of the above imho. Can you have passionate dances with one element missing? Yes I believe so; but only if we stick 'strictly' to the title of the thread. The minute we move beyond that to consider the original post and the relationship of the dance to the music it becomes a well of uncertainty. There are three points that make up this triangle: the music, your partner and yourself. If you remove one can you still define it as a triangle? The problem here is that the threshold of each of those elements that is necessary for them to be counted as 'present' varies wildly with the individual.

Both partners can love dance but if only one loves the particular song playing one variable is already affected. But wait, that's now two because the partner that loves the song is affected by the lack of passion/enjoyment of his/her partner. Think about it. As the observer within the situation you have an affect on the observed and are affected by the observed. Maybe our confusion comes from trying to define passion from both perspectives. Hopefully there is some kind of logic to that.

This is all a bit scientific but science surrounds us so to ignore it's role would be to ignore the possibility of it's influence, true? Don't mind the long post chrisk. It just means that it takes a little bit more time to think about and reply too. It's only difficult when there are too many points deal with.

You said passion is one specific emotion. I don't think I agree with that. Passion isn't an emotion in itself, it is the expression of the affect emotion has on us. It is the reaction. A passionate speaker will put his heart and soul into his words just as a passionate dancer will put his heart and soul into his movements. It's the emotions that influence the actions of an individual that result in passion.

So, now I'm trying to give this some new twist and hope to keep it from going into the above mentioned circle.To your point on the connection between flavour - or sabor - and passion. I think that passion is the key to flavour but I'm not sure if flavour can come without passion. Perhaps flavour can be emulated with training but that's not something I can comment on through experience. Perhaps flavour that is the sum of your passion and co-ordination? I don't know chrisk. Maybe flavour has nothing to do with any training or physical co-ordination at all but is something that comes from a deeper part of ourselves. Do you think it could be an expression of the subconscious?

What do you say we take this into the field? The next time we're out let's look out for passionate dancers and try (without coming across as nut nuts) to ask them how they feel about the music and what influences them? Take our weirdness into the public. :) I'm up for it if you are...

P.S
@ sweavo's post. No probs. ;)

[Flujo]

As a little side track from all the pseudo scientific neo-spiritual dance passion analysis... :)

...has anyone gone through a floor-sports phase where the enjoyment of your night is dependent on having at least a few hyper-move-fest dance conquests in addition to the dances with great emotional connection and musicality? This isn't to discount the passion in your dance discussion (not at all!) but to bring in the other sort of passion that comes from the adrenaline rush and sheer enjoyment of being able to pull off some of the stuff we do on the dance floor.

[chrisk]

chrisk is the nice one, I'm a bit of a weirdo... :lol:


Hm, why do I have a feeling that you're lying here a bit? ;)


It's a tough one. The problem is that a partner dancing has so many variables that it's almost impossible to measure one against the other. It's a bit like trying to define God in scientific terms. Can you define the source when you don't understand the creation and can you define the creation when don't understand the source? We have a 1001 different religions for that same reason.


Or like the often asked question which is the first, the chicken or the egg. I think it's somehow related to the theory of wave-particle duality that I mentioned. This theory means that stuff (physical entities) can have both wave and particle like characteristic. So let's take the example of light. If you do some experiments, you'll find that light behaves like a wave. But if you do some other experiments, light will instead behave like a particle. It's not possible to ignore one possible, so light is going to be either both or not. So in the end the characteristic of light that you can notice depend on the experiment that you do. Now let's transfer this back to the issue of the music. If we start to focus on some aspects of the music, it's seems to have certain characteristic, that I will call a for now. But if we instead turn our focus to different aspects, suddenly the music seems to have rather other characteristic, that I'll call b. It's not possible to ignore one of those characteristic as both are valid and it's just a matter of your viewpoint. So in the end the music has both characteristic and shows a behaviour that is similiar to the one descript in the wave duality theory. (Hm, is that explanation of the theory more understable?)


This is all a bit scientific but science surrounds us so to ignore it's role would be to ignore the possibility of it's influence, true? Don't mind the long post chrisk. It just means that it takes a little bit more time to think about and reply too. It's only difficult when there are too many points deal with.


Right, but it seems like I can now keep this one a bit shorter. :) And I'll agree that we shouldn't completely ignore science or try to be a bit scientific. But we should always be able to stop becoming too scientific and instead enjoy the great music and dance as what it is in the moment where we dance. :)


You said passion is one specific emotion. I don't think I agree with that. Passion isn't an emotion in itself, it is the expression of the affect emotion has on us. It is the reaction. A passionate speaker will put his heart and soul into his words just as a passionate dancer will put his heart and soul into his movements. It's the emotions that influence the actions of an individual that result in passion.


Hehe and I don't agree with you that passion is an expression. As I explained before I see passion as a specific emotion that is just as powerful as love, hate or some other emotions. So in my opinion and understanding it's rather a strong desire or even devotion to something that pulls us so much that we feel passionate about it. And in case of the dancer, the music is the source for that desire as it's the topic of the talk for the speaker. Depending on the topic that you give to a speaker, you'll find them to be passionate or not. (Just try for yourself to talk about some issue that is close to your heart and then try to talk about something that you don't like or or where you've got no real connection with. I guess you'll find that your passion is going to change because of the topic.)


To your point on the connection between flavour - or sabor - and passion. I think that passion is the key to flavour but I'm not sure if flavour can come without passion. Perhaps flavour can be emulated with training but that's not something I can comment on through experience. Perhaps flavour that is the sum of your passion and co-ordination? I don't know chrisk. Maybe flavour has nothing to do with any training or physical co-ordination at all but is something that comes from a deeper part of ourselves. Do you think it could be an expression of the subconscious?


Good question. I tend to think that for a dancer to have flavour, they have to be passionate as well. But that doesn't mean that everybody who's passionate is also having flavour. I guess there are other factors at work that influence a dancer to also have flavour. My suspicion would be that feeling the music and letting it influence your dancing and create emotions in you is important to have flavour. But then again I might be completely wrong here and there might not even be a connection at all. So maybe we'll focus more on this relationship, drop the rest and hope that others chime in on this aspect here?


What do you say we take this into the field? The next time we're out let's look out for passionate dancers and try (without coming across as nut nuts) to ask them how they feel about the music and what influences them? Take our weirdness into the public. :) I'm up for it if you are...


It sounds interesting, but I know that I don't really see passionate dancers in my local scene. But I might keep an eye open for the berlin congress.

[Jambo]

I've tried to keep up with this thread, but y'all lost me shortly after the gimp mask post on page 2 :oops:

[chr]

Or like the often asked question which is the first, the chicken or the egg. I think it's somehow related to the theory of wave-particle duality that I mentioned. This theory means that stuff (physical entities) can have both wave and particle like characteristic. So let's take the example of light. If you do some experiments, you'll find that light behaves like a wave. But if you do some other experiments, light will instead behave like a particle. It's not possible to ignore one possible, so light is going to be either both or not. So in the end the characteristic of light that you can notice depend on the experiment that you do. Now let's transfer this back to the issue of the music. If we start to focus on some aspects of the music, it's seems to have certain characteristic, that I will call a for now. But if we instead turn our focus to different aspects, suddenly the music seems to have rather other characteristic, that I'll call b. It's not possible to ignore one of those characteristic as both are valid and it's just a matter of your viewpoint. So in the end the music has both characteristic and shows a behaviour that is similiar to the one descript in the wave duality theory. (Hm, is that explanation of the theory more understable?)

Your theory certainly deserves merit. Since Fourier we know that there is a duality between the frequency domain and the time domain as long as our functions are measurable (if we neglect the difference on sets with zero Lebesgue measure). There seems to be a clear correlation between the capability of efficiently performing Fourier transformation (or wavelets, in the general sense) and finding passion in music. Although the inverse Fourier transformation must precede that which is generally performed by the musicians and seems to require higher energy and skill level than frequency -> time domain transformation, although definitely not at the expense of passion.

In order to transgress towards passion, first we have to find the abstract meaning of "fun" in the context of lambda calculus, where "fun" is basically the single building block, the universal function abstraction operation and fortunately, Curry proved that there is natural isomorphism between the fun of a pair an two single valued funs. In this context "fun" seems to be the most fundamental, and above all constructive building block of all conceivable passion.

Dually, we can attempt a hermeneutic synthesis of fun, passion and continuum in the hegemonic framework of the Zermelo-Fraenkel axiom system, which is just an extension of the traditional set theory by the axiom of choice. Here, a fun is represented by a set of (possible infinitely many) pairs, which makes perfect sense in the context of partner dancing. Additionally, the axiom of choice guarantees that there will be enough pairs as long as all natural preconditions of a good party are satisfied. However Cohen's famous theorem states that achieving continuous fun with the minimum number of pairs is independent of this axiom system, so it is deemed to be undecidable in this framework.

In order to fulfill the necessary aesthetic requirements of social dancing one should always strive for the maximum amount of symmetry the ultimate end of which is SUSY (supersymmetry). However it is still questionable whether this goal can be ever be reached without coping with all the singularities in our way. Even then ad-hoc fine-tuning may be required which is also objectionable from a puristic point of view.

[Jambo]

Your theory certainly deserves merit. Since Fourier we know that there is a duality between the frequency domain and the time domain as long as our functions are measurable (if we neglect the difference on sets with zero Lebesgue measure). There seems to be a clear correlation between the capability of efficiently performing Fourier transformation (or wavelets, in the general sense) and finding passion in music. Although the inverse Fourier transformation must precede that which is generally performed by the musicians and seems to require higher energy and skill level than frequency -> time domain transformation, although definitely not at the expense of passion.

In order to transgress towards passion, first we have to find the abstract meaning of "fun" in the context of lambda calculus, where "fun" is basically the single building block, the universal function abstraction operation and fortunately, Curry proved that there is natural isomorphism between the fun of a pair an two single valued funs. In this context "fun" seems to be the most fundamental, and above all constructive building block of all conceivable passion.

Dually, we can attempt a hermeneutic synthesis of fun, passion and continuum in the hegemonic framework of the Zermelo-Fraenkel axiom system, which is just an extension of the traditional set theory by the axiom of choice. Here, a fun is represented by a set of (possible infinitely many) pairs, which makes perfect sense in the context of partner dancing. Additionally, the axiom of choice guarantees that there will be enough pairs as long as all natural preconditions of a good party are satisfied. However Cohen's famous theorem states that achieving continuous fun with the minimum number of pairs is independent of this axiom system, so it is deemed to be undecidable in this framework.

In order to fulfill the necessary aesthetic requirements of social dancing one should always strive for the maximum amount of symmetry the ultimate end of which is SUSY (supersymmetry). However it is still questionable whether this goal can be ever be reached without coping with all the singularities in our way. Even then ad-hoc fine-tuning may be required which is also objectionable from a puristic point of view.

Ahhhhh, I see, now it's all crystal clear to me :lol:

[KP-salsa]

I've tried to keep up with this thread, but y'all lost me shortly after the gimp mask post on page 2 :oops:

I know, it reminded you that you have to polish Martin's.

[Flujo]

Ahhhhh, I see, now it's all crystal clear to me :lol::lol: Yep, crystal clear. You guys have taken it to a whole different level unless the last post was a **** take? ;)

chrisk I'm all for dropping the rest and focusing on flavour.

[chr]

:lol: Yep, crystal clear. You guys have taken it to a whole different level unless the last post was a **** take? ;)

chrisk I'm all for dropping the rest and focusing on flavour.

That's good, I just wanted to elaborate on the connection of flavour and Fermat's last tango in Paris. And a quark theoretic introduction to the flavour and baryon numbers. Touch a bit on string theory and then settle for explaining the general theory of relativity which accurately describes the attraction between the dance partners, even in the case of differing dance styles... ;)

[sweavo]

general theory of relativity which accurately describes the attraction between the dance partners, even in the case of differing dance styles... ;)

... hey, this is california, not kentucky!

[chr]

... hey, this is california, not kentucky!'

Did not you know that in Berkeley, dancers are categorized by their spin numbers and we don't allow dancers with the same spin to dance together. (This tradition goes back to Pauli.)

However this does not apply to San Francisco where the taboo of Pauli is routinely broken and dances are not restricted to opposite gender couples...

[antigone]

is this what attracts physicists to dance - an unlimited resource for obscure metaphors? :)

[chr]

is this what attracts physicists to dance - an unlimited resource for obscure metaphors? :)

Honestly,...khmmm, khmmm, ... I think it's the physical pleasure...

[Jambo]

That's good, I just wanted to elaborate on the connection of flavour and Fermat's last tango in Paris. And a quark theoretic introduction to the flavour and baryon numbers. Touch a bit on string theory and then settle for explaining the general theory of relativity which accurately describes the attraction between the dance partners, even in the case of differing dance styles... ;)

I was gonna say that!! :D

[antigone]

Honestly,...khmmm, khmmm, ... I think it's the physical pleasure...

Really? I figured that once you've described it in an elegant system of concise equations, the actual feeling is passe.

[chr]

Really? I figured that once you've described it in an elegant system of concise equations, the actual feeling is passe.

So you would rather go for chemistry?

http://ww21.tiki.ne.jp/~wildside/tabs/my_love_is_chemical.html

[Flujo]

100th post. Woot! Carry on... ;)
Edit: Oh poo...it's 101. Ah well. Close enough. :P

[Flujo]

Hm, why do I have a feeling that you're lying here a bit? ;)haha, yeah a little. Ok, maybe just strange in relation to normal...but still nice (most of the time).

So in the end the music has both characteristic and shows a behaviour that is similiar to the one descript in the wave duality theory. (Hm, is that explanation of the theory more understable?)
Nop! hehehe. But Heisenberg's uncertainty principle makes a lot of sense. The observer affects the observed. I think because of this you have the right idea about dropping the rest and focusing on flavour. It's more observable than all the rest and is what we interpret as passion. (that's what you meant in one of your previous posts isn't it?)

Right, but it seems like I can now keep this one a bit shorter. :) And I'll agree that we shouldn't completely ignore science or try to be a bit scientific. But we should always be able to stop becoming too scientific and instead enjoy the great music and dance as what it is in the moment where we dance. :)Of course. Scientists may be able to calculate water displacemet by measuring mass but it doesn't mean they don't enjoy skinny dipping. ;)

Hehe and I don't agree with you that passion is an expression. As I explained before I see passion as a specific emotion that is just as powerful as love, hate or some other emotions.Hmm. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=passion
Isn't passionate the word you use to describe your state of being when you feel a strong emotion influencing your actions. I'm not sure if it is an emotion in itself. An emotion results in passion. Passionately in love, a passionate speach fueled with anger, a passionate embrace filled with joy. Does that make sense?

Anyone care to help with this one?

My suspicion would be that feeling the music and letting it influence your dancing and create emotions in you is important to have flavour. But then again I might be completely wrong here and there might not even be a connection at all. So maybe we'll focus more on this relationship, drop the rest and hope that others chime in on this aspect here?
Agreed.
Ok, maybe wait until November then. You lucky git! ;)

[chrisk]

Nop! hehehe. But Heisenberg's uncertainty principle makes a lot of sense. The observer affects the observed. I think because of this you have the right idea about dropping the rest and focusing on flavour. It's more observable than all the rest and is what we interpret as passion. (that's what you meant in one of your previous posts isn't it?)


Hm, I've talked about flavour and passion before, but I'm not sure which previous post you mean here. But in any case, I'm currently disagreeing with you here. Flavour might be a bit more obversable, but it's also in the eye of the beholder, just like passion. And while I suspect that there's some relationship between passion and flavour, I don't agree with you that flavour is what we interpret as passion. In my opinion you can have some dancers with passion in their dance but no flavour at all. And some other dancers have flavour and also show passion in their dance. So what's the relationship between them and how do you introduce not only passion but flavour as well into your dance?


Ok, maybe wait until November then. You lucky git! ;)


Sorry, but the congress is september 12. So I'll hopefully post something earlier to this thread then november. :p

[Flujo]

Can we take this to pm? I'm quite upset that you've disagreed but can't use bad language and curses without offending anyone! :P :)
Would you mind?

It would be nice to be able to veer off topic into other areas.

P.S It would be great to meet you at a congress one day! You guys are going to have a great time. :)

[antigone]

So you would rather go for chemistry?

http://ww21.tiki.ne.jp/~wildside/tabs/my_love_is_chemical.html

I'm an in vivo biologist - prefer my subjects still warm and squirming

[antigone]

and good lord, 11 pages - I'm surprised you guys haven't taken down the server ;)

[chrisk]

Can we take this to pm? I'm quite upset that you've disagreed but can't use bad language and curses without offending anyone! :P :)
Would you mind?


Sure, I won't mind another batch of PMs. And if you do put in to many curses, I'll have to find myself some voodoo doll. ;)


P.S It would be great to meet you at a congress one day! You guys are going to have a great time. :)

Thanks, but while I'm constraint in my travels this year, I'll guess it's different next year. So we might be able to find some even to finally meet. :)

[chr]

I'm an in vivo biologist - prefer my subjects still warm and squirming

Too bad. In vivo seems to be off-topic in this thread. It has too much to do with life... :rolleyes:

[Flujo]

Wasn't there an experiment done that showed that even when cells are removed from the body they still react to what's happening to the body? Can't remember what it was about now.

Life...what's that? :confused:

@chris lol@ the voodoo doll comment. Sew on two left feet, it might improve my dancing. :lol:

[Jaime Andres]

See my posts:
http://www.salsaforums.com/showpost.php?p=87149&postcount=12
http://www.salsaforums.com/showthread.php?t=8255

I indirectly address this topic as well in those threads.

[Flujo]

See my posts:
http://www.salsaforums.com/showpost.php?p=87149&postcount=12
http://www.salsaforums.com/showthread.php?t=8255

I indirectly address this topic as well in those threads.
Thanks Jaime. I really liked your post in smilings thread.

@chrisk: Cool, I'll scour YouTube for some good insults but come to think of it...who said anything about voodoo (it was cusses rather than curses)? I knew you were a bit to nice to be real! I bet you have a bunch of chickens clucking in the back yard ready for times like this. "Heeeere little chicky......." haha

So we'll take it to pm. Maybe finish up the other stuff first eh? I kind of figured people would get a bit fed up seeing this thread on the main page all the time but hopefully someone else will bite the lure and post something in the future. It's up to you dude - we really need to cut down a little anyway. It will get to the point where we have to read entire books and take course before we can even understand what the other is talking about. :lol:

[antigone]

I kind of figured people would get a bit fed up seeing this thread on the main page all the time

I doubt anyone is fed up. It's amusing to try to follow it, and make fun of you guys a bit. No offense intended :)

[Flujo]

Sorry antigone but I will hold a grudge for years to come. If you ever see a strange looking guy at a congress one year giving you the evil eye. That will be me! hehe :)

[antigone]

Sorry antigone but I will hold a grudge for years to come. If you ever see a strange looking guy at a congress one year giving you the evil eye. That will be me! hehe :)

Ah, but you forget that I avoid eye contact. So you'll have to spin me into another couple or something to express your grudge :eyebrow: