Learning On2 (ET Style) for On1 dancers Corner

[peachexploration]

In the spirit of Mexi_Gabacho's thread, I thought I would create another one just for support and specific ideas for those of us who are transitioning from On1 to ET2 (Eddie Torres Style On2). I'll start with a few observations I have made since I started a couple of months ago. ET2 masters/dancers, please feel free to correct us and add your thoughts. We need all the help we can get. Or at least, I do! :lol:

Anyways, here is goes:

One of my first observations that I've learned is that you don't really get rid of the 1 beat while dancing ET2. You actually "begin on 1" and break on 2.

Here is the the breakdown of the basic step from Salsanewyork.com

1st beat of the measure - The man steps back with his left foot. The woman steps forward with her right foot.

2nd beat of the measure - The man steps farther back with his right foot, then changes direction, starting to lean forward with his body = "breaks forward on 2". The woman steps farther forward with her left foot, then changes direction, starting to lean back with her body = "breaking back on 2".

3rd beat of the measure - The man steps in place with his left foot, while his body is moving forward. The woman steps in place with her right foot, while her body is moving backward.

4th beat of the measure - No steps.

5th beat of the measure - The man steps forward with his right foot, in front of his left foot. The woman steps backward with her left foot, behind her right foot.

6th beat of the measure - The man steps farther forward with his left foot, then changes direction, starting to lean backward with his body = "breaks back on 6". The woman steps farther back with her right foot, then changes direction, starting to lean forward = "breaks forward on 6".

7th beat of the measure - The man steps in place with his right foot, while his body is moving backward. The woman steps in place with her left foot, while her body is moving forward.

8th beat of the measure - No steps.

[peachexploration]

Just remember and important tip: For follows, the action is on beats 123 and for leads, the action is on beats 567....Sounds like 0n1 now but it's not really. :) It's reversed if doing on1. Can anyone else confirm this?

[MacMoto]

Just remember and important tip: For follows, the action is on beats 123 and for leads, the action is on beats 567....Sounds like 0n1 now but it's not really. :) It's reversed if doing on1. Can anyone else confirm this?
Yes I believe you are right -- something to do with ET's "ladies first" philosophy IIRC... I like the fact that, in ET2, shines are always taught in the follower's timing :).

But it's not a straight reverse of on1 -- the most important step for the follower, the walk forward in CBL (equivalent of "the 5" on2) happens on the 2 beat, not the 1.

[peachexploration]

Okay, got it. Thanks, Mac. :)

[salcero2005]

Maybe someone should design a class or video specifically for ON1 dancers that are converting to ON2 to cover such sticking points and help break the common habits.

Would be nice if a Salsa class began with a bit of a musical foundation and the objective of letting the music dictate whether you dance on 1, 2, 3 or whatever.

[mexi_gabacho]

Maybe someone should design a class or video specifically for ON1 dancers that are converting to ON2 to cover such sticking points and help break the common habits.

Would be nice if a Salsa class began with a bit of a musical foundation and the objective of letting the music dictate whether you dance on 1, 2, 3 or whatever.

I'm totally with you on that. Seems like there would be a good market for it. The problem is that most of the 'big' On2 instructors, are On2-native. I'd be the first one buying it, as I'm sure something like that would speed up my learning process (or at least the amount of time it takes to get comfortable with the On2 footwork).

[peachexploration]

Hi MG. :) There is this one DVD I have that demonstrates how moves are done On1 and On2 but it's not broken down, just demonstrated. It's the Avanced Volume by Juan & Diana but it's not helpful being as though it's not really ET2. :(

[salcero2005]

Can someone summarize the different styles of ON2 ... Razzmatazz, Eddie Torres, Juan Mantos, etc.? Are the styles different, or are they the same? I ask because I keep seeing ET2 as though it is different from other ON2 styles. If that is so, do ON2 dancers that learned in different systems clash :?:

[peachexploration]

Can someone summarize the different styles of ON2 ... Razzmatazz, Eddie Torres, Juan Mantos, etc.? Are the styles different, or are they the same? I ask because I keep seeing ET2 as though it is different from other ON2 styles. If that is so, do ON2 dancers that learned in different systems clash :?:

Boriken is a better authority but the two I know are:

Palladium style or Power 2 which is done beats 2,3,4 6,7,8. 1 and 5 beats are held (I think). :oops:

Eddie Torres (ET2) style is done on 1,2,3 5,6,7 but still breaking on2. (Steps explained above in detail).

[borikenSalsero]

Can someone summarize the different styles of ON2 ... Razzmatazz, Eddie Torres, Juan Mantos, etc.? Are the styles different, or are they the same? I ask because I keep seeing ET2 as though it is different from other ON2 styles. If that is so, do ON2 dancers that learned in different systems clash :?:

ET2 (Eddie Torres) = NY City on2, which is as explained above by peach.

Power2 = Palladium style.
This is danced by holding a count (The one and five), men starting forward just as on1. the break is done on the second beat of the bar as well, just like ET2.

I'm not sure Juan Matos dances anything other than ET2.

I dance power2, and more, and more becoming worse on my ET2, which is still a million miles away from my on1. :D

I would say that in my 4 years of dancing power2 I've only had a clash with one lady. The rest usually don't notice that I'm holding the first beat of the bar.

A number of on1 dancers have told me that it is easier to follow someone dancing power2 than it is to follow someone dancing ET2, because of the "unusual" stepping sequence...

[salcero2005]

interesting ... what are the roots of power On2? who is the ET of power On2?

[MacMoto]

Hi MG. :) There is this one DVD I have that demonstrates how moves are done On1 and On2 but it's not broken down, just demonstrated. It's the Avanced Volume by Juan & Diana but it's not helpful being as though it's not really ET2. :(
I've got two DVDs by Jami Josephson (who came to Edinburgh to teach last month... she's great :) ), and moves are demonstrated On1 and On2. I have only had a quick look so far :oops:, but it was interesting to see her explanation of different ways to double spin On2 and On1.

[MacMoto]

interesting ... what are the roots of power On2? who is the ET of power On2?
The main people behind Power 2 are RazzMTazz, and their website says:

234, OR POWER 2
RazzMTazz teaches and dances on Power 2, the original New York salsa style that emerged in the Palladium era. The Mambo Aces pioneered it, and legends like Freddie Rios and George Vascones followed suit. They all swore by the power it gave their movement.


About ET2 (which RazzMTazz *doesn't* call ET2 :?), it says:
123 -- BALLROOM 2, or “NEW YORK 2”
Many schools in New York are teaching the 123 method, which is the ballroom style developed by commercial dance schools.

Why do they teach Ballroom 2 instead of the Power 2? Well, quite simply, because it’s easier to do.

And why is it easier? Because people have an easier time stepping on “1” than waiting for the “2.” Most people can find “1,” the first beat in the music, but haven’t developed the ear to find “2.” So stepping “one-two” is like a handy cheat for breaking on "2."

(http://www.razzmtazz.com/power2.html)
:shock: :? :roll:

[salcero2005]

interesting ... what are the roots of power On2? who is the ET of power On2?
The main people behind Power 2 are RazzMTazz, and their website says:

234, OR POWER 2
RazzMTazz teaches and dances on Power 2, the original New York salsa style that emerged in the Palladium era. The Mambo Aces pioneered it, and legends like Freddie Rios and George Vascones followed suit. They all swore by the power it gave their movement.


About ET2 (which RazzMTazz *doesn't* call ET2 :?), it says:
123 -- BALLROOM 2, or “NEW YORK 2”
Many schools in New York are teaching the 123 method, which is the ballroom style developed by commercial dance schools.

Why do they teach Ballroom 2 instead of the Power 2? Well, quite simply, because it’s easier to do.

And why is it easier? Because people have an easier time stepping on “1” than waiting for the “2.” Most people can find “1,” the first beat in the music, but haven’t developed the ear to find “2.” So stepping “one-two” is like a handy cheat for breaking on "2."

(http://www.razzmtazz.com/power2.html)
:shock: :? :roll:

Thanks, I took a few classes with Maria Tores and also Addie (Angel's wife) a while back. I never thought about the dif. but felt there was something a little dif., but you seemed to wind up in the same place in the end. I just got tired of all the dif. counting schemes, especially since my default is On1.

[peachexploration]

I had my first private on Sunday. Amazing what you learn in an hour. I had this terrible problem of ending up on the 5 beat coming out a turn or spin. I found that I needed to slow it down a bit. As long as I prep/get the signal from the lead on 6, 7 beats, there is more than enough time. Much smoother. I practice in the office bathroom every chance I got yesterday at work. I also learn that my turns were too big. Meaning my feet where too far apart. Once I corrected that problem, it became smoother as well. Those points are not so much On2 issues but at least some bad habits are being ironed out. :)

[MacMoto]

I'm in need of some input from people who do both LA style (on1) and ET on2 regarding something very basic: the crossbody lead.

My on2 teacher tells me that I'm slow to do the cross -- he feels I'm waiting for him to push me before I start moving. He says I should step forward without waiting for the push on my back, and that that's the way dancers in NY dance...

This grates on my LA on1 instinct, as it has been drummed into me that I should wait for the pressure on my back before I cross; that I should even lean back a bit on the 4 to make sure I don't cross until led (see my old post re. CBL (http://www.salsaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=223#223)); that I should try to delay the cross a little to maximise the swoosh! effect. None of my teachers nor the on1 leaders I dance with regularly have complained/pointed out to me that I'm crossing too late waiting for a push, but maybe they do think I am late and just haven't told me? I'm confused... :?

But then I do understand that the overall feel of NY on2 dancing is supposed to be quite different from that of LA on1 -- smooth vs. flash'n' bang, close & compact vs. exagerrated expand/contract action, circular vs. linear, etc. So perhaps these differences also call for different CBL dynamics? Since on2 is a very small minority in Scotland, I don't have anyone I can turn to for a second opinion.

Any advice/comment/experience to share?

[peachexploration]

Mac, I'm having the same problem only my instructor calls it a stutter in my feet. :lol: He noticed it a couple of weeks ago while we were doing a CBL and yes, there was that delay. What promted it was left and right turns that I was having problems with in some move, can't remember which one, and just couldn't get it so he had me just do CBLs exercises by myself for a while and found the problem. The if infamous stutter (delay). He suggested that I practice continuously hitting the precise beats and not compensating for the delayed or unaccented beats such as 4 and 8 like you may do dancing on1. Hope that makes sense or helps. :? :D

[africana]

hmm..interesting problem because I've never encountered it :?
I'm not aware of completing a CBL on2 without being lead, i.e. a pull on my hand by the lead, or a push from behind or by the waist

Yes peach it might have to do with performing the CBL footwork on the right counts once the lead indicates that it is a CBL. And it should be a fluid move, almost pivoting on the 2-3. but I should add that I don't remember ever having to count thorough steps except when I lead so...

Also I dance both LA on1 (4+ years) and NY on2 (2+ years), and there are various flavors in between so it's hard to characterize one with "flash n bang" versus the other being just smooth. I've met a good amount of smooth on1 dancers as well as some flashy on2 dancers, so you just never know these days

--------
And by the way, any transitioning dancers tried using an instrument to help you dance on2 without having to count??
A couple of weeks ago I explained to a local instructor who was trying to learn on2 that he should listen to the bass guitar (or tumbao, whichever one is louder) to help him determine the 2 and 6, in addition to demonstrating the basic step and some side-to-side
I was surprised how rapidly that concept improved his ability to stay on2, also to convert his on1 moves to ET2. I had used this with one or two others in the past but not able to see them dance to determine if this helped.
Anyway I'm really impressed by the way he not only keeps the beat, but can actually groove to the music in the particular way that NY on2 dancers can. I have enjoyed all the on2 dances with him :D

[peachexploration]

..... And it should be a fluid move, almost pivoting on the 2-3.... Right, Africana. This is how I finally got it as my instructor explained it the exact same way. :)

[salcero2005]

And by the way, any transitioning dancers tried using an instrument to help you dance on2 without having to count??

I always have the clave beat that plays the 2 and 6 beat in my head when I listen to a song, if I want to break on 2. Its the simple beat that you find in songs like Jimmy Bosch's La Oportunidad.

[MacMoto]

And by the way, any transitioning dancers tried using an instrument to help you dance on2 without having to count??
Sort of...
The way I made my transition from on1 to on2 was via cha-cha on2. Dancing cha-cha helped retrain my ear so I could feel the 1 beat not as the first beat of the measure but rather as the last beat of the cha-cha-cha, together with the last tu-ku of the conga tumbao. Through this process I started noticing the conga pattern more, and I think it's still the conga rather than the clave I latch on to when I dance on 2.

[africana]

Oh yes the cha cha is great, love it! It's been my primary way for converting my staunch on1 friends. Even they can feel the music on2

[peachexploration]

Ooh, Ooh, Ooh! My instructor tried to get that across to my fellow classmates one day: Actually starting off with Cha-Cha in order to make it easier to move to On2. Such chickens! :lol: They said no, no we can't do that, it's too hard. :nope: :cry: Little did they know, it was an exercise that would have helped quite a bit. :)

[africana]

heehee not to mention that it's quite fun! perfect for shines :D

[mambonewb]

Great thread! I've taken it upon myself to learn "on2" and began by taking as many of the on2 workshops I could over the weekend at Palm Springs. Maybe not the best approach but it's got me thinking in those terms.

Thanks for explaining the different on2 uh, styles(?). There were a several on2 instructors at the event and not all of them started out the same way. After reading this thread I realize they were either Power2 or ET2.

My goal is to be able to dance with any Salsera, whether on1 or on2. I already dance Cha-cha-cha on2, so I figured why not Salsa as well?

[peachexploration]

Hi Mambonewb. Welcome to Salsa Forums! Happy to have you here. :D
Yes, that's definitely a plus knowing more than one style. More people to dance with. :banana:

[salcero2005]

Subject: here's an interesting article from salsafreak on on1 and on2 dancing


My Transition from Dancing on 1 to the New York 2
By Dan Wilson

Before I get into this most of you know what this article is about
from the title. For those of you that are unfamiliar the meaning of
dancing on 1 or 2 check out Edie's article at
http://www.salsafreak.com/steps.htm. Also, here is the disclaimer: I
didn't write this article to offend anyone. These are just my
opinions.

My wife Lory and I started dancing Salsa about three years ago. I'll
skip the details of how we got started (that's another story). We
wanted to learn salsa and decided to take some lessons. One of the
local nightclubs offered a weekly Salsa class so we decided to start
there.

The class was a six-week course taught by a local ballroom
instructor. This class provided us with some instruction on the
basics. When I say basic, I mean real basic! We learned a minimal
amount of partner work and a few shines. My biggest gripe is that the
instructor did not play much music while he was teaching. Music was
played after the class ended. Because of this we had some difficulty
dancing in time with the music when it was played after the class.

After several weeks we began to look for some instruction beyond this
class. From watching dancers at the local clubs we were very
impressed with a couple from New York, Tyrone and Myrna. They are
both excellent dancers. We met them and became friends. We took some
lessons from them once a week at their house and learned more from
them than we did in the nightclub class. At this point we were
hooked. We wanted more!

I read an article somewhere that advertised a Salsa instructional
tape featuring Eddie Torres. I immediately ordered the tape. I
remember the first time I watched the tape. I was very impressed but
a little bit frustrated because this tape teaches you how to dance
Salsa on the 2 (New York style) and we had learned on the 1. I later
found out that there are several different ways to execute a Salsa
basic. For example you can break on 1, 2, 3 or 4. There are a couple
of ways to dance on 2: the Ballroom 2 and the New York 2. For more
details on this check out http://www.salsafreak.com/steps.htm. At the
time we were beginners and were happy to learn on 1 or 2 or anything.
We just wanted to learn.

About that time we heard that Tito Puente would be making an
appearance in Atlanta. At this time (in 1997), the Olympics were here
in Atlanta and Tito was here to perform at an Olympic related event.
I knew that Eddie Torres and his dancers sometimes perform on stage
with Tito Puente. We thought that maybe some of Eddie's dancers would
accompany Tito to Atlanta. We hoped that maybe we could schedule a
couple of private lessons with some of his dancers while they were in
town. I surfed the Internet and found a couple of phone numbers to
call for information on Eddie Torres group classes in New York. A
very nice lady answered the phone and said that a couple of the
dancers would be here with Tito. She took my phone number and said
someone would call me if they had time. I never received a return
call from them. I figured the Olympic Park bombing might have scared
them away or maybe they were just too busy to fit in the lessons.

Several months later we went to New York with Ty and Myrna. They were
great guides for the New York Salsa scene. They took us to
Copacabana, Latin Quarters and Flamingo. My feet have never been so
sore. We had a great time. And the New York dancers! So many good
dancers! To say I was impressed would be an understatement. This
really motivated me to want to learn. We wanted to take lessons in
New York, unfortunately it was time to come back to Atlanta and would
have to wait until the next trip.

A few months later we planned another trip. I called the number
listed for information on Eddie Torres's classes. The nice lady that
I spoke to months ago remembered me. She explained that the dancers
were in a very tight schedule in Atlanta but if we came to New York
that she could arrange for some private lessons for us. I gave her
the dates of when of our upcoming trip and she asked me if we wanted
some private lessons with Eddie. I told her that would be great.
During the conversation I discovered she is Eddie's mother!

When we went for our private lessons with Eddie. We arrived at the
studio and met Elliott Lampert. He was working with Eddie Torres at
the time. He wanted to know how were able to schedule private lessons
with Eddie. I replied that Eddie's mother scheduled them. I found out
later that Eddie does not usually teach private lessons, just group
classes. He taught David Lee Roth some private lessons a few months
before us. The reason he agreed to work with us privately was because
of his mother. She asked him to do this for her. She remembered us
and wanted to do something nice. What a sweet lady! Thank You!!

The lessons started and Eddie Torres asked us to dance for him. I
don't get nervous if people watch me dance at nightclubs but this was
different. Eddie Torres was going to watch us dance. Yikes!! The
butterflies in my stomach felt more like humming birds! We were still
dancing on 1 at the time and still just beginners, dancing less than
a year. After watching us dance for a (long) few minutes, he asked us
if we wanted him to teach us on one or two. He said he would teach us
either way since we were taking private lessons with him we would be
going first class and could have it any way we want it. . We decided
to learn to dance on 2. It felt like starting over. I felt so awkward
at first. In the beginning, I thought that it didn't feel natural. It
seemed like dancing the basic inside out compared to dancing on 1.
Still, I was determined to get it. The lesson went well, Eddie was
very nice and made the lesson fun as well as a great learning
experience for us.

For several weeks after the lessons with Eddie Torres we continued to
struggle to with the New York 2 but I noticed the more I danced the
easier it became (and the more I liked it). Then one night, after a
few weeks of frustration, click…..a light bulb lit up. Wow! I could
really feel the music. I realized that I never felt the music before
until now. It's like a door was opened for me, a door I had been
trying so hard to open. Maybe I was trying too hard before. But it
seemed as if it just opened by itself. What a great feeling! From
that day forward, I decided I would never dance Salsa on anything but
the New York 2 again (and to this day I have not).

A couple of years have passed since we made the transition to the New
York 2. We've taken lessons with Nelson Flores, Dellile Thomas and
Glenda Heffer. They are all excellent dancers and teachers. As I told
you earlier, I don't dance on the 1 anymore. It's the man's decision
to start the dance and what to break on. I now avoid asking ladies
who prefer to dance on 1. On one occasion a lady ask me to dance with
her and said she noticed that I dance on the two. She asked if I
would mind dancing with her on one. I answered that I would love to
dance with her but it would have to be on two. I know, you're
probably saying "jeez, what a diehard" (I guess I am a diehard when
it comes to this). Sorry, I just don't enjoy dancing on 1 anymore. I
would rather dance on 2 with a beginner than on 1 with an experienced
dancer. Most of the ladies I dance with now can follow the guy
regardless of what he breaks on. So, it's really not a problem.

As I stated earlier, no offense intended. I'm not saying that
breaking on 2 is better than breaking on 1. Notice that I did not
attempt to explain why I prefer 2 beyond saying that it feels better
to me. Maybe breaking on the 1 feels better to you. There is no right
or wrong here. The most important thing is to have fun. Salsa is a
beautiful dance regardless of what you break on.

[peachexploration]

Good article, Salcero2005. Thanks for posting. :)

[MistressMambo]

I agree, great article!

[peachexploration]

Hi Mistress Mambo! Welcome to Salsa Forums. Happy to have you here! :D

[MistressMambo]

Hi Mistress Mambo! Welcome to Salsa Forums. Happy to have you here! :D
Thanks Peach!

[salcero2005]

This is an excellent article on the history of salsa/mambo and the differences between On1 and On2.

worldsalsafederation.com/articles2.html

[peachexploration]

Ooh, Ooh, Ooh! My instructor tried to get that across to my fellow classmates one day: Actually starting off with Cha-Cha in order to make it easier to move to On2. Such chickens! :lol: They said no, no we can't do that, it's too hard. :nope: :cry: Little did they know, it was an exercise that would have helped quite a bit. :)Yesterday, in my private class, I got a real treat! Cha Cha the whole time! :banana: :D

[peachexploration]

Last night, I sucked in class. :? Some sort of funky shine sequence that I just could not get until toward the end of class. :( What I did notice is that the more the intricate these shines get, the more I need to do it with the music and if it's not "in" the music, I just can't get it. :? It also helps to have legs of spaghetti! :lol: :lol:

[PielCanela]

I went for my first private lesson ( well there were two of us). Lucy my friend and I went because I was so overwhelm by three patters that our teacher was showing. I already have a hard time remembering things, at the end of the hour I could not remember a single thing, luckily my friend has an extensive background in ballroom dancing and is more attuned at being instructed because he pretty much remember all the combos. after the class I basically had to spend the next hour in the parking lot just practicing so I could at least remember enough to do it at home.

I consider it very useful though, she, the teacher, point out that my basic was a little bit off, I was jumping in the middle and loosing the beat and my left foot, when hitting the first beat was going to my left side rather than going straight to the front, I haven't even noticed but I went to check some video I had of myself dancing and sure enough it look awful.

... I have a lot to practice still ... I see so many nice moves and want to get better, my little dance studio in my baseman will be done in a few more weeks, I ma so excited !!

Now my friend and I are planning to go to this dance club and hopefully try the new patterns that we learned with our respective lady partners

[peachexploration]

.....Now my friend and I are planning to go to this dance club and hopefully try the new patterns that we learned with our respective lady partnersHow did it go, Piel? :)

[salcero2005]

I took a class with Eddie Saturday, after the Congress workshops. It was supposed to be 2 hours ... it wound up being for 4 hours ... the man lives, eats, breaths this stuff. I learned a lot from just talking to him and taking several hours of classes over the weekend from him and Maria. I don't think I will be going back to On1 :(

[peachexploration]

Wow, how lucky are you, Salcero2005! :cheers:

[PielCanela]

.....Now my friend and I are planning to go to this dance club and hopefully try the new patterns that we learned with our respective lady partnersHow did it go, Piel? :)

oh it was very good as always, we so couple of really good dancers there which is always an inspiration and it pumps me to practice even harder.

[DeeplyDippy]

I started my first regular On2 (et2) lessons last night :D

I've done several classes over the years but there's never been a local club that caters for it. Finally, I've found one that's a little under an hour away.

And ... it went very well :) I've got to work on making the timing automatic over the weeks but I was pleased.

[peachexploration]

I started my first regular On2 (et2) lessons last night :D

I've done several classes over the years but there's never been a local club that caters for it. Finally, I've found one that's a little under an hour away.

And ... it went very well :) I've got to work on making the timing automatic over the weeks but I was pleased.

Cool! :cheers:

[DeeplyDippy]

Cool! :cheers:
Yeah - next stop, New York !

[seut]

I want to share an opinion on transitioning to ET2.

During the summer the instructor of our studio spent several weeks in the USA and besides others activities has attended many classes of Eddie Torres and other on2 instructors. So now when he has decided that we have to learn on2 too, besides cuban and LA.

I found that if there's en clave (or howevere itis spelled) in the music it is completely logical and easy to keep the on2 timing, but when it is missing, once I lose the timimg I hardly can find it again. I've had only two classes until now, so I think timing will not be quite a problem. ET2 is quite easier than power2 (I've tried once and forgot completely about it) - because the dead beat is again 4, if I'm not wrong.

On2 gives a great vision on footwork and body movement, but it lack the elegance of the on1 plain movements - basic, cbl, etc., or it just seems like that now. Anyway, I'm quite enthusistic, in few months Ill tell you what the result is.

[peachexploration]

.....On2 gives a great vision on footwork and body movement, but it lack the elegance of the on1 plain movements - basic, cbl, etc., or it just seems like that now. Anyway, I'm quite enthusistic, in few months Ill tell you what the result is.Hi Seut. :D Lacks the elegance? Hmm, have you seen dance troops like the ET Dancers perform? To me, their performances scream elegance. However, maybe you don't see it as much in a social setting and that partly may depend on the dancer's interpretation, no? :) Looks like we have quite a few On2 enthusiasts. How cool! 8)

[MistressMambo]

I took a class with Eddie Saturday, after the Congress workshops. It was supposed to be 2 hours ... it wound up being for 4 hours ... the man lives, eats, breaths this stuff. I learned a lot from just talking to him and taking several hours of classes over the weekend from him and Maria. I don't think I will be going back to On1 :(

He is great isn't he!!! I'm in NJ so whenever we get the chance to go to NYC for an ET class WE ARE THERE!!

He teaches a 3-4 hour class on Sundays. I don't know how he does it. All this energy..

Did he have his Starbucks coffee with him? lol. Once he drinks his Starbucks coffee, it's OVER. This man has more energy than before he had his coffee.. lol

[kdogg]

.....On2 gives a great vision on footwork and body movement, but it lack the elegance of the on1 plain movements - basic, cbl, etc., or it just seems like that now. Anyway, I'm quite enthusistic, in few months Ill tell you what the result is.Hi Seut. :D Lacks the elegance? Hmm, have you seen dance troops like the ET Dancers perform? To me, their performances scream elegance. However, maybe you don't see it as much in a social setting and that partly may depend on the dancer's interpretation, no? :) Looks like we have quite a few On2 enthusiasts. How cool! 8)

Both on1 and on2 dancers look elegant if they're well experienced.

[DeeplyDippy]

Both on1 and on2 dancers look elegant if they're well experienced.
I'd agree with that.

However, I've heard the argument that On2 teaches the beginner smoother footwork from the start.

Myself, I think it's probably the way On1 is taught - left, right, left, pause :) It's the standard of the teacher that causes the jerky On1 beginner hell.

[peachexploration]

Right Kdogg, that's exactly what I was getting at when I wrote "However, maybe you don't see it as much in a social setting and that partly may depend on the dancer's interpretation, no?"

To me, Salsa (in any style) is an elegant dance. But if a dancer's interpretation says something else then....

Also, keep in mind when you learn a new style, it will feel a little awkward at first, especially if it's on a different beat than you're used to. Elegance and smoothness within the dance comes with time and practice. :)

[seut]

Huh, hi again.

The first thing I saw is that my post from the morning (morning for me, at least) is full of typos - I appologise for this. I was at a party last night and at work today... :)

I meant what I wrote: Stepping forward on 1 definitely has more specific style (only IMO, of course) than stepping on place, and I mean it considering videos of famous on1 and on2 dancers. Maybe 'elegant' was not the right word. All good dancers, not only salseros, are elegant, sure.

As far as my own experience, that consist of several hours dancing at most, I feel some discomfort with cbl on2, but much more time is needed actually, to have certain opinion how it feels for me. Besides, I realized that even on1 I've made quick parts of footworks on2 (before start learning it) just because it feels more logical. It's the same with certain songs.

[DeeplyDippy]

Very pleased with my last On2 lesson. I started using some of my On1 turn patterns and knew I was keeping time and coming out to go forward on the 6 :D

[salcero2005]

I'm done with 1 ... after the NYC Congress I'm strickly On2 now. Went out last night and mostly On1 dancers, but I don't care. I'm going to NYC this weekend to take classes ... mambo mania has gotten to me :shock:

[DeeplyDippy]

Oh no - how can you limit yourself like that ?

I'm taking On2 to widen my dance range (same with Bachata) not cross over.

[salcero2005]

I already know bachata. You are right about limiting myself, but On2 is the cool thing to do around here. The way I see it, On2 is like driving a stick shift and On1 is automatic. Once I master On2, I'll start dancing On1 occasionally again, or if there is a REALLY pretty woman that only dances On1. But, I'd like to concentrate on On2 as much as possible for now. :D

[seut]

Hm, I'm still noob on2, but I noticed there are some songs that are impossible (at least for me, unnatural) to dance on2 and are still pretty nice for on1, while others just need to be danced on2. IMO the music matters. Salsa seems to be quite diverse.

[peachexploration]

I agree Seut. Some music just feels better if danced On2.

[salcero2005]

Hm, I'm still noob on2, but I noticed there are some songs that are impossible (at least for me, unnatural) to dance on2 and are still pretty nice for on1, while others just need to be danced on2. IMO the music matters. Salsa seems to be quite diverse.

I can sit out the romantic songs ... just give me the salsa dura ... the tumbao ... I'm On2 ... Tito I'm with you ... hasta la muerte!!!!

[Anthony]

lol.. salcero2005 that's exactly what i do now. I totally refuse to dance on1 while im out in the social scene. Like you put it, it's just the cool thing and I'm happy to put in that extra effort and convert to it exclusively, at least until im much much better at it.

In Brisbane's social scene, very few people dance on2 though.. that is, except for the instructors. I'd have to be the only student at my school dancing consistently on2. Which is disappointing, as I don't like dancing with instructors (intimidating) and with most others, some either can't follow it too well, or u can just tell that they aren't really feeling the clave' but just following the lead without much expression.

This has sorta put me off social dancing.. To be honest, since starting to dance on2 I've started to lose interest in social dancing, when it used to be the thing I enjoyed most. But, I'm too stubborn and there's no way im changing back to on1. ;)

[DeeplyDippy]

To be honest, since starting to dance on2 I've started to lose interest in social dancing, when it used to be the thing I enjoyed most. But, I'm too stubborn and there's no way im changing back to on1. ;)
What's the point of continuing Anthony ?

There are people here who love to dance for dancing's sake. People who love to so******e, people like me who dance to flirt.

But no-one says they live for the lessons.

[Anthony]

other than performance routine practise sessions, I've actually altogether stopped taking lessons as well since starting dancing on2. They weren't really giving me what I was looking for (1. the lesson isnt wholly in NY style, 2. there's more concentration on learning new moves than technique and styling).

What I do, do however, is practise a lot at home, in my room. I've got all my salsa music on pc, and so whatever song I like or whatever mood I'm in, I can always put something on that is satisfying.. so I dance for hours each week in my bedroom. I don't really need a partner to do it as I can visualise her and carry on dancing for like an hour or more without stopping.

If you've seen that Frankie's Mambo documentary, one thing that I could really relate to, was what he said at the beginning about dancing in a room by yourself. It becomes a lot more about feeling the music, and trying to express yourself, develop your own style and stuff.. I know in the area of leading, it can't compare to dancing with someone else, but given the circumstances, it keeps me going.

Plus, I guess I've also got it in the back of my mind, that once I get good enough, I wont be so intimidated by dancing on2 with the instructors. So eventually if I keep improving, things will get better.

[MacMoto]

Hm, I'm still noob on2, but I noticed there are some songs that are impossible (at least for me, unnatural) to dance on2 and are still pretty nice for on1, while others just need to be danced on2. IMO the music matters. Salsa seems to be quite diverse.
I agree, seut. That's why I will never be able to be an "on2 only" dancer -- there are too many good songs out there that (in my opinion) feel better on1.

[salcero2005]

Anthony ... I feel you ... there is Mambo and there is Salsa. I like to listen to buble gum music, but I don't dance to it much. Give me the NYC sound like Spanish Harlem Orchestra and Jimmy Bosch or the Boricuas like El Grand Combo - that is the music I prefer. I don't want to move to the music ... I want the music to move me ... ala the conga/tumbao. :D

[peachexploration]

...Plus, I guess I've also got it in the back of my mind, that once I get good enough, I wont be so intimidated by dancing on2 with the instructors. So eventually if I keep improving, things will get better.Know exactly how you feel Anthony. I do okay but I'm still not that great dancing with the instructors. :)

[borikenSalsero]

Lord, what a bunch of snobs we have around here. :peace:

[peachexploration]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Jones, Nikka]

...I totally refuse to dance on1 while im out in the social scene. Like you put it, it's just the cool thing and I'm happy to put in that extra effort and convert to it exclusively, at least until im much much better at it.

If I may paraphrase Confucius: "If you choose only one way in life, you have abandoned the path of true wisdom"

...very few people dance on2 though... I don't like dancing with instructors (intimidating) and with most others, some either can't follow it too well, or u can just tell that they aren't really feeling the clave' but just following the lead without much expression.

So what is the point of doing something you can not do with anyone else? I thought dancing was about sharing our passion for the music and the experience of learning through human contact.

[salcero2005]

So what is the point of doing something you can not do with anyone else? I thought dancing was about sharing our passion for the music and the experience of learning through human contact.

Thatz what we use Casino Rueda for. However, the future is On2 ... its a growing movement. Those that are learning now will be ahead of the curve. :lol:

[peachexploration]

...I totally refuse to dance on1 while im out in the social scene. Like you put it, it's just the cool thing and I'm happy to put in that extra effort and convert to it exclusively, at least until im much much better at it.

If I may paraphrase Confucius: "If you choose only one way in life, you have abandoned the path of true wisdom".I'm not speaking for Anthony but I don't think it's so much being "exclusive" to On2 but while you're in training, it helps to concentrate on it for a while until you get your bearings so to speak. I'm sure it would be the same for those who have learned On2 at first and then learn On1. The good thing about it is once you get your bearings on either one, you can always dance the other with no problem. I know for a fact that now that I have been learning ET2, my On1 has greatly improved. :)

...very few people dance on2 though... I don't like dancing with instructors (intimidating) and with most others, some either can't follow it too well, or u can just tell that they aren't really feeling the clave' but just following the lead without much expression.

So what is the point of doing something you can not do with anyone else? I thought dancing was about sharing our passion for the music and the experience of learning through human contact.Again, not speaking for Anthony but there is always the "promise" of learning something new. Yes, it does limit progression when you're very limited in outlets for your new dance interest BUT there is always the "promise" of it and eventually it will happen. I was in the same boat a year ago. I practiced on my own with supplemental videos, etc. and not a real On2 instructor within my immediate area. Just when I was about to venture out, it happened. The other side to that is, if your heart just isn't into the norm, it probably would not make sense to participate anyway. You would be just contributing and/participating in the bad energy anyway. Just a thought. :)

[Jones, Nikka]

However, the future is On2 ... its a growing movement. Those that are learning now will be ahead of the curve.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this future, has been coming on for the last what... 20, 30 years?

I'm not speaking for Anthony but I don't think it's so much being "exclusive" to On2 but while you're in training, it helps to concentrate on it for a while until you get your bearings so to speak.... The good thing about it is once you get your bearings on either one, you can always dance the other with no problem. I know for a fact that now that I have been learning ET2, my On1 has greatly improved.

I was talking about Anthony's refusal to dance on1 salsa when in a social situation. When in training or in class you can concentrate on whatever you want but to socially refuse to dance On1 just because you think On2 is "cool", smacks of snobism.

And, yes peach, you are right. Learning to dance one style or one dance makes you better at others; all the more reason why dancers should dance as many different dances and styles as possible.

[hopelessly_addicted]

Hi SFers!

I've been learning ET2 for last 3 months now and I have no regrets :) There was some hesitation whether I should learn on2 while I hadn't danced on1 for that long. But now that I'm a bit more comfortable following on2, I think it's worth the effort because:
- I can now feel the music and express in a significantly different way
- I am exposed to different turn patterns (this might be something really obvious but I find that there are distinctively on2 turn patterns that are not used so much on1)

hmm those 2 are all I can think of for the time being. Anyhow, from my personal experience, transition from on1 to on2 has been worth the effort! Not to say that I have made a complete transition.. I love salsa so however the music dictates, whoever's available to dance, I dance on whichever beat :D

[salcero2005]

Correct me if I am wrong, but this future, has been coming on for the last what... 20, 30 years?


Sure, 20 or 30 years is wrong. Salsa is recently becoming popular again among those that don't speak the language or understand the music. At one time, no one was in ET's classes. The Disco craze, Cuba embargo ... too much to go into ... but Mambo is back on the map in a big way and is growing internationally. A lot of performers and teachers are incresingly On2, and dancers are realizing that when you learn to dance On2 it teaches you more about the music and the movement. IMO, learning to dance On2 is like learning to drive a stick shift. If you can learn to drive a stick, you can drive an automatic, but not the converse!! The Mambo Movement is growing!!

[peachexploration]

Hi SFers!

I've been learning ET2 for last 3 months now and I have no regrets :) There was some hesitation whether I should learn on2 while I hadn't danced on1 for that long. But now that I'm a bit more comfortable following on2, I think it's worth the effort because:
- I can now feel the music and express in a significantly different way
- I am exposed to different turn patterns (this might be something really obvious but I find that there are distinctively on2 turn patterns that are not used so much on1)

hmm those 2 are all I can think of for the time being. Anyhow, from my personal experience, transition from on1 to on2 has been worth the effort! Not to say that I have made a complete transition.. I love salsa so however the music dictates, whoever's available to dance, I dance on whichever beat :DHi HA! Good to "see" you at SF again! :banana: Glad you're doing well On2. :) Did you find the step sequence difficult at first? How long did it take you before it naturally kicked in?

[Anthony]

If I may paraphrase Confucius: "If you choose only one way in life, you have abandoned the path of true wisdom"


Well.. like I said, I've converted exclusively, at least until I'm much much better at on2. What Peachy said had a lot of relevance for the current stage I'm at. in this transitioning stage, the more on1 I dance the less I seem to feel the beat, and the less moved by the music i am when dancing on2. I actually feel much more comfortable dancing on2 exclusively in a given week, than if I were to dance both on2 and on1 in that same time. But also, alternatively, when I do get past this stage, I think I'll be like Salscero2005, in that I'll stick mostly exclusively to on2, with dancing on1 being the rare/uncommon exception.

Now, sure I love challenges, and for some it may seem that I'm just choosing the easy way out. But, really.. it's not so much the challenge, but rather, the feeling I get when I'm dancing that's a primary issue for me here. lol, You can quote confusious, but when I dance socially, I want to enjoy what I'm dancing to, I want to feel it more and enjoy it.. and for me, I get that when I dance on2. So in response to ur paraphrase of confusious - Is there really a better path in dancing, than to pursue the fulfillment of the reason u dance? For me at least, there isn't.




So what is the point of doing something you can not do with anyone else? I thought dancing was about sharing our passion for the music and the experience of learning through human contact.

Well.. I can do it with someone else, but I'm just not at the level to comfortably dance with instructors yet. Sure dancing is about sharing our passion for the music.. but... I mean, after starting to convert to on2, I've found that I enjoy dancing on2 a significant amount more than I do with on1. To me, On1 just isn't the same anymore, so why would I go out there and dance to something I don't really enjoy as much? It's hard to share your passion for music when ur wishing u were dancing on the clave' instead. Plus, if ur dancing on2 with people who can't follow it properly, or who have no idea what count they're on, I don't really think you can say that they're sharing their passion for the music.. sure they may have a passion for the music, but they aren't feeling the clave' or able to express themselves in the dancing, and for me, the latter is what 'sharing passion for music' is more about.

Take my dance partner as an example (not to point her out or anything like that, but rather to give a general/mainstream example). These days when we dance, she can follow the on2 pretty well - much better than others (partly because she's familiar with my leads I guess). Problem is, she has no idea what count we're dancing on. The extra flare that would generally come from listening/feeling the music and expressing urself, is missing when you're only following without knowing where the clave' or 2 and 6 are. Another problem consequently is that, the moment I stop leading her, and open out into free shines, or even shines/footwork while maintaining single-hand hold, she gets confused/pauses and starts shining on1. Same thing happens with the T-stance. The passion/connection that was present when we were 'both' dancing on1, isnt there in the same way at the moment. And this remember, is the case with my dance partner. It's most often, even less satisfying, with others.

For those who reckon it's snobbish behaviour.. well.. I think you're wrong there. At the parties I go to, I'm one of those people who will usually make a point of picking out one or 2 people who I've either never danced with or who are from much lower dancing levels and ask them for a dance. If anyone does ask for a dance, if they aren't good at on2, I'll still accept so long as they're willing to dance on2. I, more than anyone else, know that I've been in some ways on the losing end as a result of the exclusive on2 choice, as there are plenty of people that I used to quite like dancing with, who I now can't really share as good a dance with. But again, ultimately I'll be wanting to dance and enjoy myself, rather than dancing just for the sake of it.

Off the top of my mind, it draws a parallel to hearing cumbia music at a salsa party, and thinking to yourself 'deeem I want to dance salsa!!!!'.. I don't like dancing cumbia, and I dont even remember how to anymore. Im sure a bunch of ppl at a salsa party could dance cumbia, and some people there would probably really like to dance to that song. So... I could choose to 'share my passion for music' (given that the song is a good one), and experience learning through human contact.. but I would really rather be at home dancing to a good salsa song than out there dancing to a cumbia song, either not enjoying myself or feeling like im not too sure what im dancing.

Sometimes I'll hear a song, and think "hey that reaaally feels more like on1". When Im passed the transition stage, I'll probably dance on1 to that, but majority will be on2. For the moment though, everything's gotta be on2.

[Anthony]

Correct me if I am wrong, but this future, has been coming on for the last what... 20, 30 years?



I have to agree with Salsero2005. At least in the places I know of, On2 is growing in popularity. In Brisbane, most of the instructors say they prefer dancing on2. Recently there have been a few workshops around the place promoting on2 dancing. A few schools are even converting part of their classes to on2 - e.g. classes which usually learn shines on1 for the first 15-20mins, do them on2 now instead.

One of the smaller schools in brisbane recently converted all it's lessons exclusively to on2. This is, after teaching only on1 lessons for over a year. (though, most of the dancers at this school aren't the dedicated ones who go social dancing :( - i used to be a student here). I've also heard of a school down in Sydney that was started up recently with some quite famous Australian salsa dancers, which exclusively teaches on2.

One of my favourite female friends from the Brisbane dancing scene moved to Singapore a few months ago. She says that On2 is growing in Singapore. Gupson, who is said to have been one of the most influencial/founding figures of salsa in Singapore, these days teaches on2 to his higher level classes. it seems to be the general trend to introduce it to higher level students first, because it's too difficult for the mainstream majority to just start dancing on a different count, or even see any reason for it.

Another one of my friends from my performance troupe went to Malaysia a few months ago (he is originally from there), and he too claims that on2 has grown quite a lot over there. There are more people dancing on2 now over there than in the past, and when he was over there, there were a number of on2 workshops being held as well.

Though, I guess this could just be a trend which is happening in Australasia region. As these places were late to catch on to salsa/latin dancing anyways, compared to north america?? I think?

[hopelessly_addicted]

Hi HA! Good to "see" you at SF again! :banana: Glad you're doing well On2. :) Did you find the step sequence difficult at first? How long did it take you before it naturally kicked in?

Hi Peache :) Thanks for the greeting!

It wasn't so much because of the step sequences that I found it difficult, but my not being a highly responsive follower that caused (and is causing) difficulty I think. Because I used to commit too much of my weight in each step I stepped, it was hard to react to all those "hesitation moves" (I acquired this term from a workshop that I attended recently but I'm not sure if this term is used commonly?)..

I think it took a couple of month for me to start dancing on2 and really enjoying it. Listening to obviously on2 songs helped a lot and also dancing with leads who have the more on2 feel helped also. Oh and of cuz, watching numerous on2 clips was also helpful I think..

my on2 is in the process of improving, as is my on1 and i hope this process never stops :)

[Jones, Nikka]

Correct me if I am wrong, but this future, has been coming on for the last what... 20, 30 years?


Sure, 20 or 30 years is wrong. Salsa is recently becoming popular again among those that don't speak the language or understand the music. At one time, no one was in ET's classes. The Disco craze, Cuba embargo ... too much to go into ... but Mambo is back on the map in a big way and is growing internationally. A lot of performers and teachers are incresingly On2,...

My point was that although new for some people; salsa, or mambo, if you will, has been around for a long time and for much of that time dancing on2 has been part of the latin dance culture. So dancing on2 is not just the future, it is also the past, re-cycled.

...and dancers are realizing that when you learn to dance On2 it teaches you more about the music and the movement.

I will have to disagree with you on that. Both on1 and on2 styles involve six steps per basic pattern, both styles involve clave-driven phrases of 8 beats, both of them use the same proportion of rhythm to fill out the 8 beats, both of them are danced on beats 123 and 567, and both can be danced on the same songs.
Considering all this, how can anyone claim that you can learn more about music and movement from one style than from the other?
This is obviously a question of subjective taste. Both are good. Both are fun.

IMO, learning to dance On2 is like learning to drive a stick shift. If you can learn to drive a stick, you can drive an automatic, but not the converse!!

Funny you mention this, because, at least in my experience, most on1 dancers can eventually make the switchover but on2 dancers cannot. Again, this is my own personal experience, and I think it is mostly due to the fact that hardcore on2 dancers simply refuse to do it. I respect their right to think as they will, but in some cases I have to suspect that they truly can not do it.

[peachexploration]

Okay Salser@s, while there is good discussion about one's "preference of style", lets get this thread back on topic which is about support and specific ideas for those of us who are transitioning from On1 to ET2 (Eddie Torres Style On2).

Hi HA! Good to "see" you at SF again! :banana: Glad you're doing well On2. :) Did you find the step sequence difficult at first? How long did it take you before it naturally kicked in?

Hi Peache :) Thanks for the greeting!

It wasn't so much because of the step sequences that I found it difficult, but my not being a highly responsive follower that caused (and is causing) difficulty I think. Because I used to commit too much of my weight in each step I stepped, it was hard to react to all those "hesitation moves" (I acquired this term from a workshop that I attended recently but I'm not sure if this term is used commonly?).. Hesitation steps? Meaning, holding the 1 beat before execution?

[Jones, Nikka]

...I will have to disagree with you on that. Both on1 and on2 styles involve six steps per basic pattern, both styles involve clave-driven phrases of 8 beats, both of them use the same proportion of rhythm to fill out the 8 beats, both of them are danced on beats 123 and 567, and both can be danced on the same songs.
Considering all this, how can anyone claim that you can learn more about music and movement from one style than from the other?
This is obviously a question of subjective taste. Both are good. Both are fun.

The whole point of my post was to show that on1 and on2 are practically the same thing.
When I first asked my teacher about dancing on2 I was afraid that it would be difficult because it is different from on1. He laughed and instead he showed me how it is similar to on1.
It took him a one and a half hour class to show me all my old on1 patterns on2; and after only about 2 weeks of practice I was at the stage when I could not even tell if I had danced on1 or on2, it was that comfortable.
I guess the teaching approach had a lot to do with it.

[peachexploration]

I got your post Nikka but again, we need to keep this one on topic, please. This thread is not about which is better or how On1 and On2 are the same. It is for support and specific ideas for those of us who are transitioning from On1 to ET2 (Eddie Torres Style On2).

[hopelessly_addicted]

Hesitation steps? Meaning, holding the 1 beat before execution?

Hi Peache :) Hmm an example of these steps would be one where the follower is led to do a left turn but then when she's turning to her left, the lead 'catches' her by pressing his right palm against her right palm, turning her to her right. Hope this makes sense? :? I think this is used as a basis for various patterns..

[peachexploration]

Okay, I think I know which one you're talking about. For the move, beats 6, 7 are important for the follow. Almost like a shift on 6(right foot), 7)left foot) Step on 1(right foot again) and then turn to your right on the 2 beat. I hope that makes sense. Not sure what this is called, maybe a reverse check turn? Not sure of the name but I hope that helps. :)

[Jones, Nikka]

Okay, I think I know which one you're talking about. For the move, beats 6, 7 are important for the follow. Almost like a shift on 6(right foot), 7)left foot) Step on 1(right foot again) and then turn to your right on the 2 beat. I hope that makes sense. Not sure what this is called, maybe a reverse check turn? Not sure of the name but I hope that helps. :)

You are right Peach, it is a check turn. A hesitation step is (I believe) when the leader forces the follower to hold a step and the count by stopping his own movement

[peachexploration]

So, how's it going transitioners? :D

[PielCanela]

Doing very well, it sure was tough going for a while, and I still have timing issues, but all and all I am very happy with it,

It has been quite rewarding, not only because it matches what I expect from dancing but also due to the challenge that it represented for me, every mile stone becomes a cause for mini celebration.

Finding people to dance On2 has been an issue at times, but not a serious one, I actually been surprise of the number of On2 people I been able to dance outside of NY City. This people usually are more advance and I can pick them up from a crowd easily.

I realize on1 previous training did create some issues for me, I have seen experienced on1 dancers who after a couple of months continue to have problems doing on2, and then I have seen completely beginners on2 who have just sailed and even surpass those advance dancers when on2 dancing is concern.

This really puts in perspective that idea I have hear around on1 dancers that on2 is for advance dancers only, in my experience and of others around me. I think if On2 is a style you are going to like the sooner you start the better.

[peachexploration]

...This really puts in perspective that idea I have hear around on1 dancers that on2 is for advance dancers only, in my experience and of others around me. I think if On2 is a style you are going to like the sooner you start the better.Yup, agree totally. Glad you're doing well. Anyone else?

[praecantricis]

It's funny as I'm not deliberately 'transitoning' to on2 but I am taking the odd class and making sure I can hold the on2 basic. I have no trouble with timing or hearing the 2 in the music - but i've never been one to count when i dance so I don't have to break the pattern in my head of having my foot in a particular location on a particular count. My problem is I only know one instructor (that I know well enough to get him to lead me on 2 in a practice scenario) who dances on2 and that is at a location that's quite hard for me to get to- none of my friends do and i don't want to approach some fab on2 salsero in a club and torture him with my (probably) woeful on2 following...so my problem is lack of opportunity to practice.

[MacMoto]

My problem is I only know one instructor (that I know well enough to get him to lead me on 2 in a practice scenario) who dances on2 and that is at a location that's quite hard for me to get to- none of my friends do and i don't want to approach some fab on2 salsero in a club and torture him with my (probably) woeful on2 following...so my problem is lack of opportunity to practice.
At clubs where there are many on2 dancers, they often ask "on1 or on2?". Just answer: "I've just started learning on2 so can we try on2?" -- that way they will be more forgiving.

[Salsamakossa]

Hi,

I am also new to ET2. I can dance PowerOn2, essentially converting my moves from on1. So I am very curious to know one or two examples of specific turn patterns that are exclusive to ET2 style dancing?

Hi SFers!

I've been learning ET2 for last 3 months now and I have no regrets :) There was some hesitation whether I should learn on2 while I hadn't danced on1 for that long. But now that I'm a bit more comfortable following on2, I think it's worth the effort because:
- I can now feel the music and express in a significantly different way
- I am exposed to different turn patterns (this might be something really obvious but I find that there are distinctively on2 turn patterns that are not used so much on1)

hmm those 2 are all I can think of for the time being. Anyhow, from my personal experience, transition from on1 to on2 has been worth the effort! Not to say that I have made a complete transition.. I love salsa so however the music dictates, whoever's available to dance, I dance on whichever beat :D

[peachexploration]

Salsamakossa, welcome to Salsa Forums. Happy to have you here! :D I'm not good at identifying named turn patterns but others here are. Hopefully, they will chime in soon. It's Saturday night so they're probably all out dancing. :) Anyways, just wanted to say welcome.

[PielCanela]

while I have seen patterns that tent to be used more in a particular style, I think it will be tough to say there is any particular pattern that is the domain of a particular style, there are moves that probably you won't be seeing in a NY On2 dancer, which are the norm in On1. Fancy showy tricks are less prevalent on2 while on1 makes a point to incorporate them in the dance with exciting results, this while On2 makes a point to smooth out the dance, incorporating mesmerizing fluidity, sound timing and strong technique,

[Salsamakossa]

Belated thanks for the welcome.

Like I said, I am an on1 dancer switching to on2. I have found Power2 a more natural transition, and have been hesitant to switch completely to ET2 because I find it very similar to Power2 ie for guys, both break backward on 2, and forward on 6. I am really curious to find out whether a girl one is dancing with, could tell the difference between a Power2 lead and an ET lead. I find that while with ET2 a guy takes a smaller step on 1, he could could easily hold that step, essentially blending ET2 dancing to Power2 style. Also, step 4 on Power2 can easily blend with step 5 on the ET2 style.

Maybe the ET2 experts could clarify the little details that have me in a "bind", if I can call it that...

By the way, where did the Changui below my name on the right, come from? :lol:

Salsamakossa, welcome to Salsa Forums. Happy to have you here! :D I'm not good at identifying named turn patterns but others here are. Hopefully, they will chime in soon. It's Saturday night so they're probably all out dancing. :) Anyways, just wanted to say welcome.

[peachexploration]

See Boriken's post:

Can someone summarize the different styles of ON2 ... Razzmatazz, Eddie Torres, Juan Mantos, etc.? Are the styles different, or are they the same? I ask because I keep seeing ET2 as though it is different from other ON2 styles. If that is so, do ON2 dancers that learned in different systems clash :?:

ET2 (Eddie Torres) = NY City on2, which is as explained above by peach.

Power2 = Palladium style.
This is danced by holding a count (The one and five), men starting forward just as on1. the break is done on the second beat of the bar as well, just like ET2.

I'm not sure Juan Matos dances anything other than ET2.

I dance power2, and more, and more becoming worse on my ET2, which is still a million miles away from my on1. :D

I would say that in my 4 years of dancing power2 I've only had a clash with one lady. The rest usually don't notice that I'm holding the first beat of the bar.

A number of on1 dancers have told me that it is easier to follow someone dancing power2 than it is to follow someone dancing ET2, because of the "unusual" stepping sequence...

Regarding Changui, see :arrow: http://www.salsaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=203

[Salsamakossa]

Well, I guess that confirms my thoughts about Power2 dancing.

If this was a soccer forum, I would be ranked Pattern Police.... dang :lol: :lol: .

See Boriken's post:

Can someone summarize the different styles of ON2 ... Razzmatazz, Eddie Torres, Juan Mantos, etc.? Are the styles different, or are they the same? I ask because I keep seeing ET2 as though it is different from other ON2 styles. If that is so, do ON2 dancers that learned in different systems clash :?:

ET2 (Eddie Torres) = NY City on2, which is as explained above by peach.

Power2 = Palladium style.
This is danced by holding a count (The one and five), men starting forward just as on1. the break is done on the second beat of the bar as well, just like ET2.

I'm not sure Juan Matos dances anything other than ET2.

I dance power2, and more, and more becoming worse on my ET2, which is still a million miles away from my on1. :D

I would say that in my 4 years of dancing power2 I've only had a clash with one lady. The rest usually don't notice that I'm holding the first beat of the bar.

A number of on1 dancers have told me that it is easier to follow someone dancing power2 than it is to follow someone dancing ET2, because of the "unusual" stepping sequence...

Regarding Changui, see :arrow: http://www.salsaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=203

[salsera_alemana]

Thatz what we use Casino Rueda for. However, the future is On2 ... its a growing movement. Those that are learning now will be ahead of the curve. :lol:

The movement is not new, at least 10 years old. I saw it the first time in Puerto Rico in 1997 but it could be older than that.

[PielCanela]

Thatz what we use Casino Rueda for. However, the future is On2 ... its a growing movement. Those that are learning now will be ahead of the curve. :lol:

The movement is not new, at least 10 years old. I saw it the first time in Puerto Rico in 1997 but it could be older than that.

I don't think salcero2005 was saying it was new, rather that it has experience a revival of sorts, together with new increased popularity of salsa and Latin music in general.

according to my research, (please correct me anyone if you have reliable information)

by 1965 that paladium closed, so by then Power on2 was already present.
it seems that around 1975 that Eddie stared making his mark, and in 1980 he performed with Tito Puentes. So On2 NY style salsa, or ET2 has about around for at least.

it is has sure experience a revival which has been surprising considering that on1 is the most popular and worldwide danced style. The surge of on2 seems to be fairly recently but it has taken over several scenes. Chicago has some socials in which most people are dancing on2. It seem like almost any major city has a group of on2 dancers.

Interestingly enough I was in Ponce, Puerto Rico, in this outdoor gathering center near the beach with shops, bands playing, and people dancing, to my surprise I saw some 4 dancers just going at it, I got close hoping to see PR salsa but then I realize that they were dancing ON2 NY style. So even in PR you have NY on2 dancers. LA too now has clubs catering the on2 crowd for what I have heard.

[combo]

Piel,
I live in Chicago and it's amazing what has happened in the last 2.5 years. Right now, virtually everyone who is a serious dancer is on2 (some might be insulted by that, but it's true). Go back to Summer 2004, it was pretty much a novelty. I started switching about a year ago, and I regret waiting so long. I can't pinpoint exactly what it is, but dancing on2, I just feel so much more aware and in tune with the music.

[salsaForfun]

The movement is not new, at least 10 years old. I saw it the first time in Puerto Rico in 1997 but it could be older than that.

I don't think salcero2005 was saying it was new, rather that it has experience a revival of sorts, together with new increased popularity of salsa and Latin music in general.

according to my research, (please correct me anyone if you have reliable information)

by 1965 that paladium closed, so by then Power on2 was already present.
it seems that around 1975 that Eddie stared making his mark, and in 1980 he performed with Tito Puentes. So On2 NY style salsa, or ET2 has about around for at least.
...............



As for breaking only, breaking the ET way might exist earlier if we consider ET interview on w w w.angelortiz.com. Surely he made it popular in dance schools by adding technicality, style, other dance influences and putting a system together: ET salsa nightclub style. I am happy he did that!


Angel: Here’s a question a lot of people wanted me to ask you: When you first started dancing, did you start on the "1", "2" or anything else?

ET: The first time I heard about this dancing on "2" was when someone from one of the studios asked me. June LaBerta was responsible for "educating" me in this dance. June was responsible for advising me that if I wanted to teach, or choreograph, I would have to learn how to read music. She said I would only limit myself if I didn’t know how to read. She compared it to a gifted piano player where the individual plays the piano but does not know how to read. As a dancer, June told me, that I have to know clave. You have to know about phrasing, you have to know terminology. She drove me crazy, Angel, for two years.

Somewhere along the line, I went to a studio and someone asked me, "Eddie, do you dance on "2"?". I was about 18 years old. I said, "Dance on "2"?" You mean my two feet? I said what do you mean by "2"? Before then, I never knew what that was. June would purposely take me to all these different ballrooms and parties to dance and show me off. Everybody would watch and ask who I was. Eddie Dorfer was her previous partner. June was about 56 years old when I met her. Then people were coming up to me asking all these technical questions. So after awhile, and since I didn’t know the answers, I decided to learn it. So June sat me down and began teaching me how to read music. At first it was a nightmare. So to answer your question, I was always on "2" but didn’t know it.

Angel: What is the controversy today regarding the different methods of counting i.e., 1-2-3-5-6-7 or the 2-3-4-6-7-8? The public has heard about dancing on the "1" and so forth. Can you describe to us your point of view on this?

ET: It’s hard for me to answer that but I think the 2nd generation of Palladium dancers, well, we somehow adapted and it became our natural way of dancing Mambo, 1-2-3. It was our generation. There was the Palladium 2-3-4 method and even the Cuban 2. A lot of the dancers in the Palladium days evolved from the Rumba, which is 2-3-4 timing.

Angel: Then what do you attribute the popularity of the 1-2-3-5-6-7 if all this time the studios have been teaching the 2-3-4?
ET: The studios which were teaching at the time when I was growing up. No one from the street world went to a studio. Our gravitation to the 1-2-3 was already happening without us knowing that it was the 1-2-3. We are still breaking on 2 but it wasn’t the 2-3-4. So I would have to say that the reason 1-2-3 became so popular is because I was one of the first from the street form, to bring it to the public. I started putting names to the steps and started promoting it that way because June explained that I was dancing on that timing. So we started to call the 1-2-3 the street version and the 2-3-4 the studio version. So I introduced this 1-2-3 before this whole thing with "Salsa’ came out. "Salsa" as we know it today came afterwards. I’ve been teaching for many years now. I remember way back when I had only three or four students. Then people began to recognize and acknowledge my timing and wanted to learn from me. They said that what Eddie teaches fits in the clubs.

[Salsamakossa]

Nice to read that interview.



The movement is not new, at least 10 years old. I saw it the first time in Puerto Rico in 1997 but it could be older than that.

I don't think salcero2005 was saying it was new, rather that it has experience a revival of sorts, together with new increased popularity of salsa and Latin music in general.

according to my research, (please correct me anyone if you have reliable information)

by 1965 that paladium closed, so by then Power on2 was already present.
it seems that around 1975 that Eddie stared making his mark, and in 1980 he performed with Tito Puentes. So On2 NY style salsa, or ET2 has about around for at least.
...............



As for breaking only, breaking the ET way might exist earlier if we consider ET interview on w w w.angelortiz.com. Surely he made it popular in dance schools by adding technicality, style, other dance influences and putting a system together: ET salsa nightclub style. I am happy he did that!


Angel: Here’s a question a lot of people wanted me to ask you: When you first started dancing, did you start on the "1", "2" or anything else?

ET: The first time I heard about this dancing on "2" was when someone from one of the studios asked me. June LaBerta was responsible for "educating" me in this dance. June was responsible for advising me that if I wanted to teach, or choreograph, I would have to learn how to read music. She said I would only limit myself if I didn’t know how to read. She compared it to a gifted piano player where the individual plays the piano but does not know how to read. As a dancer, June told me, that I have to know clave. You have to know about phrasing, you have to know terminology. She drove me crazy, Angel, for two years.

Somewhere along the line, I went to a studio and someone asked me, "Eddie, do you dance on "2"?". I was about 18 years old. I said, "Dance on "2"?" You mean my two feet? I said what do you mean by "2"? Before then, I never knew what that was. June would purposely take me to all these different ballrooms and parties to dance and show me off. Everybody would watch and ask who I was. Eddie Dorfer was her previous partner. June was about 56 years old when I met her. Then people were coming up to me asking all these technical questions. So after awhile, and since I didn’t know the answers, I decided to learn it. So June sat me down and began teaching me how to read music. At first it was a nightmare. So to answer your question, I was always on "2" but didn’t know it.

Angel: What is the controversy today regarding the different methods of counting i.e., 1-2-3-5-6-7 or the 2-3-4-6-7-8? The public has heard about dancing on the "1" and so forth. Can you describe to us your point of view on this?

ET: It’s hard for me to answer that but I think the 2nd generation of Palladium dancers, well, we somehow adapted and it became our natural way of dancing Mambo, 1-2-3. It was our generation. There was the Palladium 2-3-4 method and even the Cuban 2. A lot of the dancers in the Palladium days evolved from the Rumba, which is 2-3-4 timing.

Angel: Then what do you attribute the popularity of the 1-2-3-5-6-7 if all this time the studios have been teaching the 2-3-4?
ET: The studios which were teaching at the time when I was growing up. No one from the street world went to a studio. Our gravitation to the 1-2-3 was already happening without us knowing that it was the 1-2-3. We are still breaking on 2 but it wasn’t the 2-3-4. So I would have to say that the reason 1-2-3 became so popular is because I was one of the first from the street form, to bring it to the public. I started putting names to the steps and started promoting it that way because June explained that I was dancing on that timing. So we started to call the 1-2-3 the street version and the 2-3-4 the studio version. So I introduced this 1-2-3 before this whole thing with "Salsa’ came out. "Salsa" as we know it today came afterwards. I’ve been teaching for many years now. I remember way back when I had only three or four students. Then people began to recognize and acknowledge my timing and wanted to learn from me. They said that what Eddie teaches fits in the clubs.

[Salsamakossa]

This is why switching to Power2 is easier. It has the same structure as on1. ie your first step is the breaking step. And for the conversion(both for Power2 and ET2), add 5 (modulo 8 for the math guys here...lol) to the on1 count, to know the equivalent count on2. There are a few exceptions for some moves, but otherwise, it works really well.

Maybe someone should design a class or video specifically for ON1 dancers that are converting to ON2 to cover such sticking points and help break the common habits.

Would be nice if a Salsa class began with a bit of a musical foundation and the objective of letting the music dictate whether you dance on 1, 2, 3 or whatever.

[Salsamakossa]

All 4 Leon Rose DVDs show moves both on1 and on2. The Bernard Martinez DVDs also do the same. Leon Rose breaks them down on1 only though, and his moves are highly technical. The guy dances just as much as the lady.

Hi MG. :) There is this one DVD I have that demonstrates how moves are done On1 and On2 but it's not broken down, just demonstrated. It's the Avanced Volume by Juan & Diana but it's not helpful being as though it's not really ET2. :(

[Salsamakossa]

So how is Anthony doing these days? I have found that until you try you don't know how good someone is. So try dancing with the instructors before feeling intimidated. You might just like it.

other than performance routine practise sessions, I've actually altogether stopped taking lessons as well since starting dancing on2. They weren't really giving me what I was looking for (1. the lesson isnt wholly in NY style, 2. there's more concentration on learning new moves than technique and styling).

What I do, do however, is practise a lot at home, in my room. I've got all my salsa music on pc, and so whatever song I like or whatever mood I'm in, I can always put something on that is satisfying.. so I dance for hours each week in my bedroom. I don't really need a partner to do it as I can visualise her and carry on dancing for like an hour or more without stopping.

If you've seen that Frankie's Mambo documentary, one thing that I could really relate to, was what he said at the beginning about dancing in a room by yourself. It becomes a lot more about feeling the music, and trying to express yourself, develop your own style and stuff.. I know in the area of leading, it can't compare to dancing with someone else, but given the circumstances, it keeps me going.

Plus, I guess I've also got it in the back of my mind, that once I get good enough, I wont be so intimidated by dancing on2 with the instructors. So eventually if I keep improving, things will get better.

[Salsamakossa]

Are you in London or thereabouts? I thought there were many on2 dancers in London.

It's funny as I'm not deliberately 'transitoning' to on2 but I am taking the odd class and making sure I can hold the on2 basic. I have no trouble with timing or hearing the 2 in the music - but i've never been one to count when i dance so I don't have to break the pattern in my head of having my foot in a particular location on a particular count. My problem is I only know one instructor (that I know well enough to get him to lead me on 2 in a practice scenario) who dances on2 and that is at a location that's quite hard for me to get to- none of my friends do and i don't want to approach some fab on2 salsero in a club and torture him with my (probably) woeful on2 following...so my problem is lack of opportunity to practice.

[tj]

Okay Salser@s, while there is good discussion about one's "preference of style", lets get this thread back on topic which is about support and specific ideas for those of us who are transitioning from On1 to ET2 (Eddie Torres Style On2).

My "On2 Nazi" friends would probably have a laugh at this - I think I've had my On2 Moment of Clarity. I'm really understanding what to listen to when dancing On2. I believe I'm doing ET2 not Power2, but again I can see how it doesn't seem to matter as much. (Well, excluding the confusion of the 1 vs the 5.)

That driving bass that's present in so much Salsa Dura really makes it obvious when to break with your feet, and I find myself stepping on that in order to keep my footwork right.

Still new at this, but I "get it" now, or at least I think I do.

Hi HA! Good to "see" you at SF again! :banana: Glad you're doing well On2. :) Did you find the step sequence difficult at first? How long did it take you before it naturally kicked in?

Hi Peache :) Thanks for the greeting!

It wasn't so much because of the step sequences that I found it difficult, but my not being a highly responsive follower that caused (and is causing) difficulty I think. Because I used to commit too much of my weight in each step I stepped, it was hard to react to all those "hesitation moves" (I acquired this term from a workshop that I attended recently but I'm not sure if this term is used commonly?).. Hesitation steps? Meaning, holding the 1 beat before execution?

Yeah, I can feel the difference with the two ways. But wouldn't Power2 be more of a "rushing" movement, meaning that I'm stepping a beat early - on the 4 instead of the 5, and on the 8 instead of the 1?

[Jambo]

I guess this is as good a place as any to put this.

I was a bit :evil: the other night when I heard that a certain teacher told one of my teachers (who teaches both On1 and On2) to change all his classes to On2 with the explanation that he is trying to eradicate On1 in our area. I'm a tad vexed, not to mention a tad amazed at the guy's delusional idea that he is some sort of 'Salsa God' who can influence all the teachers and dancers in our area to dance On2 or not at all.

Someone needs a reality check!!! :evil:

[tj]

I guess this is as good a place as any to put this.

I was a bit :evil: the other night when I heard that a certain teacher told one of my teachers (who teaches both On1 and On2) to change all his classes to On2 with the explanation that he is trying to eradicate On1 in our area. I'm a tad vexed, not to mention a tad amazed at the guy's delusional idea that he is some sort of 'Salsa God' who can influence all the teachers and dancers in our area to dance On2 or not at all.

Someone needs a reality check!!! :evil:

I hear ya. I'd be annoyed, too.

[peachexploration]

I guess this is as good a place as any to put this.

I was a bit :evil: the other night when I heard that a certain teacher told one of my teachers (who teaches both On1 and On2) to change all his classes to On2 with the explanation that he is trying to eradicate On1 in our area. I'm a tad vexed, not to mention a tad amazed at the guy's delusional idea that he is some sort of 'Salsa God' who can influence all the teachers and dancers in our area to dance On2 or not at all.

Someone needs a reality check!!! :evil:

Well, I don't think that will happen. Let the people what they want to dance. On1, On2, On5.7, On3.8, it doesn't matter. It's people like that who gives dancers a bad name in general! :evil:

[tj]

I guess this is as good a place as any to put this.

I was a bit :evil: the other night when I heard that a certain teacher told one of my teachers (who teaches both On1 and On2) to change all his classes to On2 with the explanation that he is trying to eradicate On1 in our area. I'm a tad vexed, not to mention a tad amazed at the guy's delusional idea that he is some sort of 'Salsa God' who can influence all the teachers and dancers in our area to dance On2 or not at all.

Someone needs a reality check!!! :evil:

Well, I don't think that will happen. Let the people what they want to dance. On1, On2, On5.7, On3.8, it doesn't matter. It's people like that who gives dancers a bad name in general! :evil:

Highly divisive for a scene, too.

[peachexploration]

Hi HA! Good to "see" you at SF again! :banana: Glad you're doing well On2. :) Did you find the step sequence difficult at first? How long did it take you before it naturally kicked in?

Hi Peache :) Thanks for the greeting!

It wasn't so much because of the step sequences that I found it difficult, but my not being a highly responsive follower that caused (and is causing) difficulty I think. Because I used to commit too much of my weight in each step I stepped, it was hard to react to all those "hesitation moves" (I acquired this term from a workshop that I attended recently but I'm not sure if this term is used commonly?).. Hesitation steps? Meaning, holding the 1 beat before execution?

Yeah, I can feel the difference with the two ways. But wouldn't Power2 be more of a "rushing" movement, meaning that I'm stepping a beat early - on the 4 instead of the 5, and on the 8 instead of the 1?

This is why switching to Power2 is easier. It has the same structure as on1. ie your first step is the breaking step. And for the conversion(bothe for Power2 and ET2), add 5 (modulo 8 for the math guys here...lol) to the on1 count, to know the equivalent count on2. There are a few exceptions for some moves, but otherwise, it works really well....TJ, in regards to music, I don't know about the "rushing" feeling unless it's a certain move that you're doing. I have ET2 ingrained in my dance psyche so I don't really know. Boriken, are you around today? Anyone else who does P2?

[tj]

This is why switching to Power2 is easier. It has the same structure as on1. ie your first step is the breaking step. And for the conversion(bothe for Power2 and ET2), add 5 (modulo 8 for the math guys here...lol) to the on1 count, to know the equivalent count on2. There are a few exceptions for some moves, but otherwise, it works really well....TJ, in regards to music, I don't know about the "rushing" feeling unless it's a certain move that you're doing. I have ET2 ingrained in my dance psyche so I don't really know. Boriken, are you around today? Anyone else who does P2?

Well, take what I say with a grain of salt since I'm still an On2 newb. I think this is something that will take me months to "master" since I'm still not 100% committed to On2 (in that the majority of Atlanta dancers - and thus my dances - are still On1).

[Salsamakossa]

Tj,

It's a question of perception. If you feel step3 when dancing on1 is rushed, then step4 when dancing P2 would be rushed when doing 234. However, it comes earlier, compared to step5 since there is the pause on 4 when dancing ET2.

Just try it for a moment. Dancing as such:
ET2: 123 567
And then P2: 234 678 (with the 2 breaking backwards of course).


But wouldn't Power2 be more of a "rushing" movement, meaning that I'm stepping a beat early - on the 4 instead of the 5, and on the 8 instead of the 1?

[tj]

I don't think I'm doing a very good job of explaining what I'm talking about. Give me a few months to figure this stuff out and I'll get back to you! ;)

[vin]

My "On2 Nazi" friends would probably have a laugh at this - I think I've had my On2 Moment of Clarity. I'm really understanding what to listen to when dancing On2. I believe I'm doing ET2 not Power2, but again I can see how it doesn't seem to matter as much. (Well, excluding the confusion of the 1 vs the 5.)


Yeah, I can feel the difference with the two ways. But wouldn't Power2 be more of a "rushing" movement, meaning that I'm stepping a beat early - on the 4 instead of the 5, and on the 8 instead of the 1?
I am not considered an on2 nazi here am I? In any case
You are right in that power2 is stepping on4 instead of five. But I would not call it rushing.

The difference is small but there is definitely a difference and it can be felt when dancing with someone dancing the other style.

I hesitate to call them different styles because depending on many factors I find myself drifting between the two. I also wouldn't say power2 is easier because I think ET2 has the benifit that a good on1 dancer doesn't have to actually change the moments at which they are dancing to switch to ET2, they just have to change footwork.(A lazy on1 dancer, well that's another story)

[TheBear_CanDanceToo]

I guess this is as good a place as any to put this.

I was a bit :evil: the other night when I heard that a certain teacher told one of my teachers (who teaches both On1 and On2) to change all his classes to On2 with the explanation that he is trying to eradicate On1 in our area. I'm a tad vexed, not to mention a tad amazed at the guy's delusional idea that he is some sort of 'Salsa God' who can influence all the teachers and dancers in our area to dance On2 or not at all.

Someone needs a reality check!!! :evil:

I dance (and teach) mainly On1, but with a bit of ET2 on occaision (or P2, which I knew as "Puerto-Rican On2"). We've had a local club switch to solely ET2 a couple of years ago, which has helped to ostracize them from all the other local clubs, who all dance almost exclusively On1. But it's what they (the teachers concerned) want to do so that's up to them. Some of their dancers come to our club too and happliy switch between 1 and 2 but new beginners won't have the same luxury. But to be told by someone to change what/the way you teach? Bang out of order, that is! Where abouts are you based, Jambo?

Anyway, rant over, I'd just like to say that whilst I prefer generally to dance On1, some music lends itself to ET2 and it's nice to be able to make the change when musicality knocks on your door.
Some ladies tell me that they have more time for turns etc when dancing ET2, though as there're still only 8 beats in the bar, I don't really see how, unless it means us leads have less time for leading, which in itself whould cause problems. :? But if a lady prefers, then I'll dance ET2 with her cos I like to think my dancing is about having my lady enjoy her dance with me.

Personally I think On1 looks and feels sassier and sharper than ET2. but hey, what do I know?

Tip for anyone making the switch;
Count "one two three, five SIX seven" and remember that ET2 is really On6!

Tip for followers making the switch;
Find yourself a considerate, patient leader that can do both and you'll be amazed at how easy it is.

[tj]

My "On2 Nazi" friends would probably have a laugh at this - I think I've had my On2 Moment of Clarity. I'm really understanding what to listen to when dancing On2. I believe I'm doing ET2 not Power2, but again I can see how it doesn't seem to matter as much. (Well, excluding the confusion of the 1 vs the 5.)


Yeah, I can feel the difference with the two ways. But wouldn't Power2 be more of a "rushing" movement, meaning that I'm stepping a beat early - on the 4 instead of the 5, and on the 8 instead of the 1?
I am not considered an on2 nazi here am I?
Lol, nah!! (You know the folks I'm referring to!)


In any case
You are right in that power2 is stepping on4 instead of five. But I would not call it rushing.

The difference is small but there is definitely a difference and it can be felt when dancing with someone dancing the other style.

I hesitate to call them different styles because depending on many factors I find myself drifting between the two. I also wouldn't say power2 is easier because I think ET2 has the benifit that a good on1 dancer doesn't have to actually change the moments at which they are dancing to switch to ET2, they just have to change footwork.(A lazy on1 dancer, well that's another story)

I'm too new at it to really know the difference, I think. But I think I'm doing an ok job of staying on ET2, in general. (Well, except that I might be occasionally mixing my 1's and 5's like I said earlier.)

[tj]

Some ladies tell me that they have more time for turns etc when dancing ET2, though as there're still only 8 beats in the bar, I don't really see how, unless it means us leads have less time for leading, which in itself whould cause problems. :?

My understanding (newb, that I am :wink: ) is that often they're "cheating" in that they're squeezing the 2-3 or 6-7 into smaller than the actual 2 beats.

[Jambo]

But to be told by someone to change what/the way you teach? Bang out of order, that is! Where abouts are you based, Jambo?

This particular teacher wants to cull the Manchester area :roll:. At the moment Manchester has a good mix of On1, On2 and Cuban dancers, which I think is great, variety is the spice of life ;)

The teacher said he 'hates dancing On1', that's fine and easily remedied without ostracizing all the On1 dancers in the area....just don't do it. Strangely enough, until quite recently this teacher had an On1 class, I'd be pretty pi**ed off if I'd have given him money every week to learn something he later announced he hated and was trying to eradicate :evil:

Not to worry, it's never gonna happen ;)

[Swannie]

Back to the transitioning topic...

what should I practice?

I feel that I should be putting a lot of time into my on2 basic so that I don't have to think about it any more (like my on1).

At the moment if I start clapping the clave on2 I slip back to on1 (even though I am stepping same feet et2 :roll:). So I want to be able to do that fine on2 too.

I can pretty much do the cross body mens footwork on2 if I have been practicing the basic enough. I can do rumba (side to side) with an on2 feel.

What next? Where should I be placing my emphasis as a lead? Right turns and hook turns?

Do the leads come in on different timing, due to the different breaking? I would imagine they would... but I can't quite see how that fits :(

[sweavo]

At the moment if I start clapping the clave on2 I slip back to on1 (even though I am stepping same feet et2 :roll:). So I want to be able to do that fine on2 too.


Listen to the conga, you can't go wrong while you listen to the conga, for various values of "can't".


I can pretty much do the cross body mens footwork on2 if I have been practicing the basic enough. I can do rumba (side to side) with an on2 feel.


Amoosingly, that sideways step is often done on the 1 beginning on the right for an on2 lead.


Do the leads come in on different timing, due to the different breaking? I would imagine they would... but I can't quite see how that fits :(

For the lead, move the 1 to the 6 to begin with. Small emphases change as well but I think that will come naturally since you seem to be rhythmically inclined!

[TheBear_CanDanceToo]

When I'm dancing on ET2, I count "one TWO three, five SIX seven" still counting one with the music but emphasising the TWO and the SIX myself, regardless of clave or conga in the music.
I find the trouble with trying to analyse the music down to the instruments and when they are used and on what count, relies on the musicians playing using the same rules. Which quite often they don't. I prefer to listen to the music than the instruments. Music ALWAYS has a One and a Two. Instruments don't.
:?

[sweavo]

When I'm dancing on ET2, I count "one TWO three, five SIX seven" still counting one with the music but emphasising the TWO and the SIX myself, regardless of clave or conga in the music.
I find the trouble with trying to analyse the music down to the instruments and when they are used and on what count, relies on the musicians playing using the same rules. Which quite often they don't. I prefer to listen to the music than the instruments. Music ALWAYS has a One and a Two. Instruments don't.
:?

True for some scenes, depends on your venue's music policy. If it's timba ,reggaeton, RnB, I wouldn't be dancing on2 anyway unless my partner didn't know the 1... but in mambo & cha cha cha, and just about everything from Puerto Rico or New York, you can set your watch by the conga slaps on 2 and 6.

[Jones, Nikka]

...the instruments and when they are used and on what count, relies on the musicians playing using the same rules. Which quite often they don't. I prefer to listen to the music than the instruments. Music ALWAYS has a One and a Two. Instruments don't.
:?

WOW!! Common sense...

[Brendan]

Listen to the conga, you can't go wrong while you listen to the conga, for various values of "can't".


I'd go a bit further and suggest trying to learn how to play it if you can. That way you know how it fits with the music and so don't need to be able to hear it to know where you are. Obviously enough that's a slightly longer term project.

Brendan

[Swannie]

When I'm dancing on ET2, I count "one TWO three, five SIX seven" still counting one with the music but emphasising the TWO and the SIX myself, regardless of clave or conga in the music.
I find the trouble with trying to analyse the music down to the instruments and when they are used and on what count, relies on the musicians playing using the same rules. Which quite often they don't. I prefer to listen to the music than the instruments. Music ALWAYS has a One and a Two. Instruments don't.
:?

True for some scenes, depends on your venue's music policy. If it's timba ,reggaeton, RnB, I wouldn't be dancing on2 anyway unless my partner didn't know the 1... but in mambo & cha cha cha, and just about everything from Puerto Rico or New York, you can set your watch by the conga slaps on 2 and 6.

Yeah, good mambo tracks I hear that conga slap on 2. Some tracks it cuts through so clear. I am having to count 123,567, but doesn't mean that my feet follow ;)

Re learning to play a conga. Well, they are quite big and loud. I have my bongos. Doing slap & open tones on the hembra quickly got boring ;)

However, it is the clave that is always, always present. I recently surprised myself in a class when I started marking time in place to an intro of a track, which was just clave, whilst everyone else in the room was standing waiting for the music to start. Shouldn't be hard to transition to et2 from the clave alone.

BTW: Hello Brendan - how is your ET2? Think you could show me some basics if you are at XL tomorrow or (possibly) Jongleurs on Weds?

[Salsamakossa]

Hi Swannie,

Do many basics like you are, do many basic CBLs, many left turns, many right turns, many open breaks, and if you are into it, a lot of shadow dancing really, since you already know the moves on1. Basically try keeping the on2 beat for a whole song(slow) with a good on2 beat, at home. Most of the Africando songs do. Within a month of practice, you should be able to do that, and then you would be well on your way. And don't beat yourself up when you slip back to on1 movement, while you count on2. Trust me, it will happen... lol.

Other thing is, if it feels easier, dance on 234 and 678 as this will be the case for someone who has already been dancing on1, and for whom their first step in a half bar is the breaking step. The follower, more than likely will not notice, since you still break on the right beats. To get my drift, watch a few you tube clips on2, and you will sometimes be hard pressed to tell whether the guy is stepping on 4 or 5 and on 8 or 1. Just don't tell those ET2 proponents that is what you are doing.. lol.

Back to the transitioning topic...

what should I practice?

I feel that I should be putting a lot of time into my on2 basic so that I don't have to think about it any more (like my on1).

At the moment if I start clapping the clave on2 I slip back to on1 (even though I am stepping same feet et2 :roll:). So I want to be able to do that fine on2 too.

I can pretty much do the cross body mens footwork on2 if I have been practicing the basic enough. I can do rumba (side to side) with an on2 feel.

What next? Where should I be placing my emphasis as a lead? Right turns and hook turns?

Do the leads come in on different timing, due to the different breaking? I would imagine they would... but I can't quite see how that fits :(

[Pax]

Hello All,

my first post here, I have been so busy dancing that I have not had any time posting on forums :). I've been dancing for 3,5 years, mostly on1 and some own fiddling with on2, but never any real on2 classes (other than some palladium classes).

...which brings me to the point, I took my first NY on2 class today and it puzzled me somewhat. The teacher said that he is teaching "Mambo/New York style" and also mentioned Eddie Torres, and his basic step goes like this (for the man):

*Begin with both feet together
*1st beat, step back with your left foot.
*2nd beat, step back with your right foot (so that your right foot is behind your left foot). The break forward is here.
*3rd beat, step in place with your left foot
*4th beat, step forward with your right foot and put the ball of your right foot in front of your left foot.
*5th beat, "plant" your right foot in place where you put it on the 4th beat.
*6th beat, step forward with your left foot (so that your left foot is in front of your right foot). The break backwards is here.
*7th beat, step in place with your right foot.
*8th beat, step back with your left foot and put the ball of your left foot behind your right foot.
*1st beat, "plant" your left foot in place where you put it on the 8th beat.
*Repeat from 2nd beat above.

All in all, this is identical to the explanation on salsanewyork.com ( www.salsanewyork.com/ourdancemusic.htm#Basic_Step ) except for one detail: steps are taken on beat 4 and 8.

I asked him about stepping clearly on 123,567 (like in this ET video: youtube.com/watch?v=DimToE_w4jk&mode=related&search= instead of his (1)234,(5)678, and he said that 123,567 though not technically incorrect was bad technique.

What do you think of this, can they really call this "Mambo/New York style", or is this something home grown? Is it maybe some of the non-ET variants from New York?

[peachexploration]

......I asked him about stepping clearly on 123,567 (like in this ET video: youtube.com/watch?v=DimToE_w4jk&mode=related&search=) instead of his (1)234,(5)678, and he said that 123,567 though not technically incorrect was bad technique.

What do you think of this, can they really call this "Mambo/New York style", or is this something home grown? Is it maybe some of the non-ET variants from New York?Hi Pax. If your instructor is teaching ET2, it should be 1..23, 5..67. Holding 4 & 8.

Here is the the breakdown of the basic step from Salsanewyork.com

1st beat of the measure - The man steps back with his left foot. The woman steps forward with her right foot.

2nd beat of the measure - The man steps farther back with his right foot, then changes direction, starting to lean forward with his body = "breaks forward on 2". The woman steps farther forward with her left foot, then changes direction, starting to lean back with her body = "breaking back on 2".

3rd beat of the measure - The man steps in place with his left foot, while his body is moving forward. The woman steps in place with her right foot, while her body is moving backward.

4th beat of the measure - No steps.

5th beat of the measure - The man steps forward with his right foot, in front of his left foot. The woman steps backward with her left foot, behind her right foot.

6th beat of the measure - The man steps farther forward with his left foot, then changes direction, starting to lean backward with his body = "breaks back on 6". The woman steps farther back with her right foot, then changes direction, starting to lean forward = "breaks forward on 6".

7th beat of the measure - The man steps in place with his right foot, while his body is moving backward. The woman steps in place with her left foot, while her body is moving forward.

8th beat of the measure - No steps.

I don't think it's a question of bad technique but moreso a derivitive of Mambo. Also, something doesn't seem correct with what your instructor is teaching or maybe it is homegrown. I could be wrong but....

Anyways, welcome to Salsa Forums even though you've been here a while. :D

[PielCanela]

Pax,

this instructor should call his salsa mambo something else but NY or ET style.

it is simply not.

[MacMoto]

Hmmm, I think what Pax's teacher is doing is to tap on the 4 and the 8 where you'd normally be still moving your foot. That makes it a variant of ET2, with all the steps still happening on the right beats, so if you were to dance this way with an ET2 dancer, it will still probably work. But he's definitely wrong to say that 123,567 is bad technique.

Welcome, Pax :).

[Swannie]

Practiced the ET2 basic, practiced it with taps too. It feels faster than my on1 basic, but that's possibly because I nice and relaxed in my on1.

Can do right turn and keep my timing, can't do right and hook turn keeping my timing yet.

Can do cross body footwork most of the time now :) Going to need to find a victim... I mean partner who is willing to suffer my on2 attempts at the clubs. So far my regular partners have pushing me back to on1 after about 20seconds :twisted:.

[TheBear_CanDanceToo]

So far my regular partners have pushing me back to on1 after about 20seconds :twisted:.
Ya gotta remind your partners just who is leading, Swannie :lol:

[praecantricis]

Tee hee - had on2 private with Lee Wright today. Wish I could follow in clubs as easily as I could follow him. I have absolutely no 'fault tolerance' in my on2 follow. Most girls seem to be able to follow your average Joe much better than I can. I can only hope it gets better with practice.

[MacMoto]

Tee hee - had on2 private with Lee Wright today. Wish I could follow in clubs as easily as I could follow him.
Yes he's a dream to dance with -- great fun too. I've got a private with him lined up next month and am looking forward to it! :D

[Salsamakossa]

This Lee guy is a good follower too. Saw him dance with SuperMario on Mario's website.

Tee hee - had on2 private with Lee Wright today. Wish I could follow in clubs as easily as I could follow him.
Yes he's a dream to dance with -- great fun too. I've got a private with him lined up next month and am looking forward to it! :D

[LARA7799]

YOu mean two guys dancign partnerwork together?

[MacMoto]

Yes -- I've see him dance with Super Mario a few times and he's great.

[LARA7799]

I don't prefer guy w/ guy dancing.

[MacMoto]

When I see two guys dancing together it's almost always two of the best leads, and my feeling is "hey, there aren't enough leaders to go around here for the number of women as it is without you guys dancing together!" :lol: But I have no problem with guy w/ guy thing per se. Same as for two women dancing together -- one of my favourite leaders in Scotland is a woman.

EDIT: Sorry this is getting very off topic...

[LARA7799]

That's part of my gripe too..

...but to get back on topic..

So, generally, how soon should one start learning On 2 after having known On 2. Is 6 mnths too early? Or can you effectively learn both at the same time?

[tj]

So, generally, how soon should one start learning On 2 after having known On 2. Is 6 mnths too early? Or can you effectively learn both at the same time?
I've known some Follows who were learning both at the same time, and it seemed to work ok.

But in general, especially for Leads, learning both simultaneously tends to get your timing all screwed up IME.

[Salsamakossa]

Lara,

It takes some getting used to. Initially, the timing can get a bit messed up but eventually, you figure it out. You just have to consider them as 2 separate dances, just like you have bachata, chacha, and merengue, all of which most people learn at the same time. At least, I did all of those for the first 8 months, and then decided to add on2 to the mix.

So, generally, how soon should one start learning On 2 after having known On 2. Is 6 mnths too early? Or can you effectively learn both at the same time?

[PielCanela]

In my case one of the hardest thing to do was to learn on2 after learning on1. I wish I would have not know on1 first. it would have make my live so much easier, your mind and body just keep going back to on1. To make matters worst while you are learning on2 you still have dance on1 with the on1 dancers and every time I would dance on1, I would feel as if my progress on2 went back to the beginning. Finally I stopped dancing on1 all together and that finally got me to the other side. Now I dance on1 very seldom... and I have the same problem... half way I keep going on2 :):)

Every time that I teach now I do it on2 right away, and a few weeks into the classes I break down on1, cuban, and cumbia styles so they have an idea of what to do if need it.

[Salsamakossa]

PC,

That's a funny one. But ya gotta keep mixing it, as I am sure you do dance bachata and merengue and cumbia as well. Granted, those are considerably different from on1 or on2. But eventually, I am sure you will find the balance.

In my case one of the hardest thing to do was to learn on2 after learning on1. I wish I would have not know on1 first. it would have make my live so much easier, your mind and body just keep going back to on1. To make matters worst while you are learning on2 you still have dance on1 with the on1 dancers and every time I would dance on1, I would feel as if my progress on2 went back to the beginning. Finally I stopped dancing on1 all together and that finally got me to the other side. Now I dance on1 very seldom... and I have the same problem... half way I keep going on2 :):)

Every time that I teach now I do it on2 right away, and a few weeks into the classes I break down on1, cuban, and cumbia styles so they have an idea of what to do if need it.

[Jones, Nikka]

...Initially, the timing can get a bit messed up but eventually, you figure it out. You just have to consider them as 2 separate dances, just like you have bachata, chacha, and merengue, all of which most people learn at the same time.

I would go as far as saying that they are 2 separate basics and that the pattern, not the timing is what you have to adjust. Think of it the same way you think of all the other salsa basics : The side break, the backbreak, the guapea and the mambo.

[Salsamakossa]

Tip for anyone making the switch;
Count "one two three, five SIX seven" and remember that ET2 is really On6!


I think very often people forget this :) :) - that ET2 is really on6!

[tj]

I would go as far as saying that they are 2 separate basics and that the pattern, not the timing is what you have to adjust.

Could you explain this further, please? I think you lost me here.

[Jones, Nikka]

I would go as far as saying that they are 2 separate basics and that the pattern, not the timing is what you have to adjust.

Could you explain this further, please? I think you lost me here.

The timing is the same: 123; 567.
The rhythm is the same: quick, quick, slow; quick quick, slow.
The order of steps is the same: right, left, right; left, right, left.
The steps that hit the clave are the same: 1, 6, and 7
The breaks are the same: Backwards with the right foot, forward with the left

So the only thing that is different is WHERE you place your feet... The pattern -or map- of the step.

The effect is almost the same as changing a mambo for a guapea. At the beginning it feels like you are doing something wrong, but then your body realizes that you are just changing directions.

[tj]

I would go as far as saying that they are 2 separate basics and that the pattern, not the timing is what you have to adjust.

Could you explain this further, please? I think you lost me here.

The timing is the same: 123; 567.
The rhythm is the same: quick, quick, slow; quick quick, slow.
The order of steps is the same: right, left, right; left, right, left.
The steps that hit the clave are the same: 1, 6, and 7
The breaks are the same: Backwards with the right foot, forward with the left

So the only thing that is different is WHERE you place your feet... The pattern -or map- of the step.

The effect is almost the same as changing a mambo for a guapea. At the beginning it feels like you are doing something wrong, but then your body realizes that you are just changing directions.

Ok, I understand what you're saying. Thanks!

[tj]

I have an observation that I've been seeing a decent amount of the time here in Atlanta. Several of the "top" On2 dancers around here are stepping to the bass of the tumbao rather than the actual 2-3. It certainly makes for a different feel, and is particularly easy for me to pick up when compared to a more traditional ET2.

So how common is this practice? Is it just a local thing?

(if you're not following what I'm saying, check out sweavo's salsamerlizer, and mute everything but the bass/tumbao)

[sweavo]

I have an observation that I've been seeing a decent amount of the time here in Atlanta. Several of the "top" On2 dancers around here are stepping to the bass of the tumbao rather than the actual 2-3. It certainly makes for a different feel, and is particularly easy for me to pick up when compared to a more traditional ET2.

So how common is this practice? Is it just a local thing?

(if you're not following what I'm saying, check out sweavo's salsamerlizer, and mute everything but the bass/tumbao)

Hmmm. I'd like to see this. We have a phenomenon we call 'syncopating the basic' that a lot of ET2 dancers do (one of his demonstrators does this on ET's own learn salsa video). That makes a tumbao-like rhythm but it doesn't line up with the tumbao exactly:


1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
o..o..o....o..o. Bass tumbao
o.b.o...o.b.o... on2 basic
..b.o..o..b.o..o Sync. basic


Alternatively, the bass on some (particularly colombian) music is less syncopated, and dancing on 3 lines up with it.


1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
....o.o.....o.o. Bass tumbao (squared)
b.o.o...b.o.o... Basic on 1
o...b.o.o...b.o. Basic on 3


From what little I understand of the Cuban conventions, on3 is simply 'a tiempo' and is perfectly fine, though 'good' on1 teachers will try to knock this out of their students. Maybe TT will have something to add on this...?

[Salsamakossa]

Sweavo,

How would you rate ET's video? Is it a must to have or nice to have? What does it cover, if you don't mind my asking?

Hmmm. I'd like to see this. We have a phenomenon we call 'syncopating the basic' that a lot of ET2 dancers do (one of his demonstrators does this on ET's own learn salsa video). That makes a tumbao-like rhythm but it doesn't line up with the tumbao exactly:


1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
o..o..o....o..o. Bass tumbao
o.b.o...o.b.o... on2 basic
..b.o..o..b.o..o Sync. basic

[tj]

Hmmm. I'd like to see this. We have a phenomenon we call 'syncopating the basic' that a lot of ET2 dancers do (one of his demonstrators does this on ET's own learn salsa video).

From what little I understand of the Cuban conventions, on3 is simply 'a tiempo' and is perfectly fine, though 'good' on1 teachers will try to knock this out of their students. Maybe TT will have something to add on this...?

Well, I was watching it again last night, and they're definitely stepping like this:


1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
...o..o....o..o. Bass tumbao
o..b..o.o..b..o.


Admittedly, they're being a bit sloppy with stepping on the "1" or the "5", but there was a pronounced break step on the 2& and 4.

I spoke to a couple of them w/o a decent answer (lol), so I'll ask some more when I see it again.

[sweavo]

Sweavo,

How would you rate ET's video? Is it a must to have or nice to have? What does it cover, if you don't mind my asking?



I got it for two reasons (1) to settle the doubt in my mind about this very issue re: syncopating basic step and (2) to get it from the 'horses mouth' since I claim to dance ET2.

I think it's a "nice to have". Though I confess I haven't been all the way through both disks. I just couldn't go on without seeing the boss himself move :-)

It starts from the very basic and contains various shines and turn patterns. Sorry couldn't be more specific, I haven't watched it in ages!

[Salsamakossa]

I know what you mean. You may be doing it right but you just don't feel it until you hear it or see it from the boss.

Sweavo,

How would you rate ET's video? Is it a must to have or nice to have? What does it cover, if you don't mind my asking?



I got it for two reasons (1) to settle the doubt in my mind about this very issue re: syncopating basic step and (2) to get it from the 'horses mouth' since I claim to dance ET2.

I think it's a "nice to have". Though I confess I haven't been all the way through both disks. I just couldn't go on without seeing the boss himself move :-)

It starts from the very basic and contains various shines and turn patterns. Sorry couldn't be more specific, I haven't watched it in ages!

[tj]

Hmmm. I'd like to see this.
As a sanity check, I'm going to confirm this with Mayanempire next time we're both out at the same club.

[PielCanela]

I agree if you are going to be an ET2 dancer then might as well hear it from the one who created. the dance itself has evolve, and it has taken a life of its own. so you should get some of the updated material, but his stuff, IS THE STUFF. and his classes are legendaries, and almost a rite of passage for an On2 dancer

[Swannie]

My ET2 transition isn't going so well, as I never really practice anything beyond the basic. Must find someone that wants to learn et2 and practice!

Or I guess I could try leading it in the clubs with my friendly followers and seeing if I can keep both of us on time...

[chrisk]

My ET2 transition isn't going so well, as I never really practice anything beyond the basic. Must find someone that wants to learn et2 and practice!

Or I guess I could try leading it in the clubs with my friendly followers and seeing if I can keep both of us on time...

Oh yeah, I can understand how you feel. As far as I know I'm the only one in my local scene here to learn On2. And the only chance to try On2 would be with the instructor from the other dance school, who I once saw in an On2 workshop. But we don't have much contact, so I'm a bit shy about asking to try dancing On2.

Therefor I've to practice a lot at home before trying it out on the dancefloor. But I also practice turns, CBL or pattern at home to memorize the steps. I find it helpful to not spend too much time thinking about the moves while instead trying to stay on time. :)

[sweavo]

When I started dancing ET2 timing, I had heard about it but scarcely saw it out and about. I had a regular dance partner who was also interested. We went to a couple of classes until I 'got' how to convert, then we would just have the occasional on2 dance together when so******ing - so this would be probably 4 dances a week. Did that for about 6 months before I attended on2 classes or workshops seriously.

I guess what I'm saying is try to find a girl who's at the same kind of on2 level as you and ask her to be your practise victim.

[Jambo]

I'm quite pleased with my On2 progress so far but one problem I have is that as soon as I'm put into a shine (either on my own or T-stance) I keep ending up On1 :oops:. Any tips?

[peachexploration]

I don't really end up on1 but just off a little to the point where I don't what beat I'm on with the music. So what's been helping me alot lately, Jambo is to listen for the 6,7 beats. That way I can ease into the 2 with no problem. Not really your issue but it might help at least a little. :)

[chrisk]

I guess what I'm saying is try to find a girl who's at the same kind of on2 level as you and ask her to be your practise victim.

I guess that will be quite difficult, since there's only an On1 crowd here. And as far as I've talked with people about On2, they aren't interested or don't care. I guess it might try to talk with one girl about it, who I met recently in a salsa class the university. Otherwise I've to keep the status quo and hope for some occasion to really dance On2. :( But I will still attend On2 workshops and learn some new stuff. And so far I've mostly been able to follow and learn the new stuff. :)

But anyway thanks for describing your experience.

[noobster]

I'm quite pleased with my On2 progress so far but one problem I have is that as soon as I'm put into a shine (either on my own or T-stance) I keep ending up On1 :oops:. Any tips?

Meh. So what? I do that all the time (slip into on2 when shining in an on1 dance). I just do a couple of back basics to get back in sync with the leader at the end. I don't think they even notice. (Actually sometimes I would like them to notice as I was hoping it would be a subtle way to get them to ask if I'd prefer on2 - so far it's never worked.) I figure as long as it doesn't interrupt the lead I get to do whatever I want with my shines. ;)

[tj]

When I started dancing ET2 timing, I had heard about it but scarcely saw it out and about. I had a regular dance partner who was also interested. We went to a couple of classes until I 'got' how to convert, then we would just have the occasional on2 dance together when so******ing - so this would be probably 4 dances a week. Did that for about 6 months before I attended on2 classes or workshops seriously.

I guess what I'm saying is try to find a girl who's at the same kind of on2 level as you and ask her to be your practise victim.
I've got one or two potential victims... err, I mean practice partners. ;)

I have to admit that I'm not that serious about learning ET2, I'm more just dabbling in it, and it gives me something different to talk about rather than the same conversations that I've had over and over again. Eventually, I'll go and take one of the local classes, but I don't feel that pressured to learn it at the moment.

But I have learned some of the basics from several of you, so thanks for that!

[Salsamakossa]

Jambo,

There could be a number of reasons for this. You might not yet be used to the idea of on2 shines. So when you finish your shine you 'feel' you are on1. Remember that on1 shines work for on2 dancing. So when you do your count 1 at the end of the shine, just carry on and emphasize the count 2 immediately after, to get you back on2. Of course, if it is on the wrong foot you can count a full cycle to get on count2 on the other foot.

Not sure if this is clear to you, but there you go ... lol.

I'm quite pleased with my On2 progress so far but one problem I have is that as soon as I'm put into a shine (either on my own or T-stance) I keep ending up On1 :oops:. Any tips?

[Salsamakossa]

Awww... poor Noobster ...lol. It's not as if we are inundated with on2 dancers here, but we are kinda ok. Sometimes I get several dances a week.

(Actually sometimes I would like them to notice as I was hoping it would be a subtle way to get them to ask if I'd prefer on2 - so far it's never worked.)

[Jambo]

Thanks Peach, Noobster and Salsamakossa for the tips, I'll try them out tonight :D

[afser226]

This is what I learnt from Troy and Jorjet. In fact Tito and Tamara teach the same way too.

The way they step is to the conga beat. tum-tum....pak (8&....2). So the emphasis is not really on the first step. The break step is the "pak!", which is 2. The first step is taken vaguely at the second "tum".

PR style, stepping with the right kinda in place followed by break step to the front with the left.

8&...23 4&...67

[Salsamakossa]

Ah ah ah... Afser,

Could you clarify what you are writing about, so we are (or I am) not guessing. So basically, are you writing about the way Troy steps for his ET2 dancing? His PR2 dancing, or both?

By the way, I think Troy and Jorjet are awesome dancers. And Jorjet is a great lead too, though our cyber-resident Jambo is not far behind...lol.

This is what I learnt from Troy and Jorjet. In fact Tito and Tamara teach the same way too.

The way they step is to the conga beat. tum-tum....pak (8&....2). So the emphasis is not really on the first step. The break step is the "pak!", which is 2. The first step is taken vaguely at the second "tum".

PR style, stepping with the right kinda in place followed by break step to the front with the left.

8&...23 4&...67

[tj]

I've taken a few workshops from Troy and Jorjet. Quite good!

(pardon my ignorance, but who are Tito and Tamara?)

[Salsamakossa]

Another leading salsa couple out there... I think you can see them on you tube.

I've taken a few workshops from Troy and Jorjet. Quite good!

(pardon my ignorance, but who are Tito and Tamara?)

[Jambo]

http://bestsmileys.com/peeping/1.gif

Did I hear someone mention my name on here?


Jorjet is a great lead too, though our cyber-resident Jambo is not far behind...lol.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/jambo_gill/gifs/36_11_6.gif

[tj]

Another leading salsa couple out there... I think you can see them on you tube.

I've taken a few workshops from Troy and Jorjet. Quite good!

(pardon my ignorance, but who are Tito and Tamara?)

Whoops! :oops: Should've done that first...

...at this point in time is usually when the (now ex-)girlfriend would say, "Aderr!" :roll: ;)

[afser226]

Ah ah ah... Afser,

Could you clarify what you are writing about, so we are (or I am) not guessing. So basically, are you writing about the way Troy steps for his ET2 dancing? His PR2 dancing, or both?



His PR2 (step with right to the front on the ( 8 )& then break on 2 to the front of the right with the left). Troy calls it creole style though.

Or you can count it as rock-step..pause..rock-step..pause (2 3 4& 5 6 7 8&) - LeftRight..Left(step on&)..RightLeft..Right(step on&)

[Jones, Nikka]

...pardon my ignorance, but who are Tito and Tamara?

Tito Ortos and Tamara Liviosi are a famous dance team from Puerto Rico They appeared in "Dirty Dancing 2- Havana Nights" and are known as the ambassadors of Portorican Salsa.
They are also amongst the few salsa superstars who can not just perform, but who know how to teach.
He first made his reputation as a member of the Bailarines de Papa Tambor During the first or second World Salsa Congress in Puerto Rico.
Tamara, born in Argentina but raised in Puerto Rico is by far the most beautiful and down to earth of all salsa divas, bar none. They are famous not just for their salsa but also their Cha-cha shows.
I have seen them perform in Puerto Rico, New York, Toronto, Los Angeles, and just a few weeks ago, here in Montreal.
Everytime I see them they are better and better.

[sweavo]

...pardon my ignorance, but who are Tito and Tamara?

Tito Ortos and Tamara Liviosi are a famous dance team from Puerto Rico They appeared in "Dirty Dancing 2- Havana Nights" and are known as the ambassadors of Portorican Salsa.
They are also amongst the few salsa superstars who can not just perform, but who know how to teach.
He first made his reputation as a member of the Bailarines de Papa Tambor During the first or second World Salsa Congress in Puerto Rico.
Tamara, born in Argentina but raised in Puerto Rico is by far the most beautiful and down to earth of all salsa divas, bar none. They are famous not just for their salsa but also their Cha-cha shows.
I have seen them perform in Puerto Rico, New York, Toronto, Los Angeles, and just a few weeks ago, here in Montreal.
Everytime I see them they are better and better.

They are also my #1 heroes, on stage they come across open, joyful, and dignified, and in class they are really clear and patient, even with a roomful of people who couldn't hack dropping off the basic for a simple piece of styling during partnerwork - myself included. They are part of my portfolio of role models for my next direction in salsa!

[chrisk]

They are also my #1 heroes, on stage they come across open, joyful, and dignified, and in class they are really clear and patient, even with a roomful of people who couldn't hack dropping off the basic for a simple piece of styling during partnerwork - myself included.

Sounds like really great teachers. I'll keep that in mind to see if I might take one of their workshops at a congress.

[tj]

Nice! I will put them on my list to see/take classes from.

[KP-salsa]

Just a quick question about this thread. The title of this thread "transitioning to ET2" and a few of the comments on the opening page use words like "converting to On2" or "moving up to on2" as though when you start to learn to dance on2 you stop dancing on1.

I know that most people posting here will dance both measures if pressed, but has anyone made the conscious decision to stop dancing on1 altogether and if so why?

Personally I'm learning on2 to be able to dance with a wider group of people and I have no intention whatsoever of ceasing to dance on1 just to make learning on2 easier, because to my mind that would defeat the object (by giving me a smaller group of people to dance with).

Also, most on1 dancers at some point try to learn on2 after they've reached a level of experience, but do dancers who have learned to dance on2 from day one feel the same urge to learn to dance on1?

EDIT: I feel so out of fashion - must now find a muppet avatar!

[Jambo]

Personally I'm learning on2 to be able to dance with a wider group of people and I have no intention whatsoever of ceasing to dance on1 just to make learning on2 easier, because to my mind that would defeat the object (by giving me a smaller group of people to dance with).

I'm the same KP (learning so I can dance with more people). Round these parts there are teachers who encourage their students to stop dancing On1 whilst they are learning On2, I think this can actually result in some of them never dancing On1 again. It may be easier to 'switch' completely, but personally I don't want to, I just want to broaden my horizons :D

[noobster]

Also, most on1 dancers at some point try to learn on2 after they've reached a level of experience, but do dancers who have learned to dance on2 from day one feel the same urge to learn to dance on1?
I think it depends whether they travel much or not.

I haven't found On2 very useful for general social dancing outside New York. Most leaders elsewhere assume On1. It's a little frustrating because my On1 is a fair bit worse than my On2. :(

On the other hand I haven't found too many On2 dancers who are really dying to learn On1. The ones who don't know it don't care because they live in the area and everyone they know dances On2 anyway. (There are a fair number around who do know On1 also but they mostly say they prefer On2.)

[Salsamakossa]

KP,

I think one or two people here have decided to stick with on2 for good, for different reasons. I know a guy in our scene who has done so, though he just about gets dances since on2 is not as big here. I am not one of them though. I dance on1 and on2. Of course we could also extend to the different on2 genres... I suspect that there are also on2 dancers who are adding on1 dancing to their repertoire. Why not?

Just a quick question about this thread. The title of this thread "transitioning to ET2" and a few of the comments on the opening page use words like "converting to On2" or "moving up to on2" as though when you start to learn to dance on2 you stop dancing on1.

I know that most people posting here will dance both measures if pressed, but has anyone made the conscious decision to stop dancing on1 altogether and if so why?

Personally I'm learning on2 to be able to dance with a wider group of people and I have no intention whatsoever of ceasing to dance on1 just to make learning on2 easier, because to my mind that would defeat the object (by giving me a smaller group of people to dance with).

Also, most on1 dancers at some point try to learn on2 after they've reached a level of experience, but do dancers who have learned to dance on2 from day one feel the same urge to learn to dance on1?

EDIT: I feel so out of fashion - must now find a muppet avatar!

[sweavo]

Discouraging people to dance on 1 HAS to be a marketing thing.

There is an argument about 'authenticity' which stands up if you accept that '50s NYC mambo is the origin of all salsa. In that world, on1 is plain wrong. But that discounts the ancestors of mambo.

There is an argument about confusing people who are trying to learn the new count. This only really stands up for people with weak timing skills, or who have not fully internalized their first-choice timing before taking up their second choice.

As a usually-on-2 dancer, I am more relaxed and in tune with the music when I dance on 2. I will also encourage others to try ET2. But on 1 really comes into its own when the music is timba or one of the crossover genres.

As to a "conscious decision" to stop on1, that's crazy. That's like getting a power screwdriver and throwing your hammer away.

[noobster]

But on 1 really comes into its own when the music is timba or one of the crossover genres.
Which nobody ever plays at most of the socials around here. You have to 'defect' to a Cuban night to hear anything off the beaten track - hence why many of the dancers don't see the utility of On1. They never hear the music that requires it.

I do have a favorite deej who plays some noncanonical tunes, but they are almost never impossible to dance to on2 the way lots of the music is at the Cuban nights. (I've heard several On2 dancers say they don't like his DJing because it is not as 'danceable.' Actually everything he plays is eminently danceable; it's just not always one of the same 50 songs with the up-tempo, driving mambo beat and prominent clave that you hear everywhere else.)

[chrisk]

I'm learning On2 because I'm interested in it and it incresases the amount of followers that I can dance with. But I would never give up dancing On1, since that would reduce my chances to dance with anybody. I might only change my preferance for regular dancing depending if most people in a place are dancing On1 or On2.

[TheBear_CanDanceToo]

I don't particularly like dancing On2 (except following) but I do particularly like to "be able" to dance On2. I just don't like not to be able to do stuff, I guess.
(Also I'm nowhere near as good On2 as I am On1, maybe that's part of the reason I don't like it as much?)

[afser226]

I love dancing on2 (started on1), because for most songs, you'll hit the 2 right on and it feels great.

[tj]

(pssst... we're getting off topic and gonna get yelled at by the mods!)

[chrisk]

Oh, to get back on topic: Since I'm usually dancing on1 (no on2 people here), I noticed I need to spend more time practising on2 at home. The footwork and lead of the patterns isn't as "hardwired" yet as all the on1 patterns.

[Ron Obvious]

Has anyone tried using Son as a way to transition to on2-dancing? I haven't heard any one say there have, but I certainly sounds logical given that the timing is about the same, or is it?

I love the timing of the Son, but it also requires special music. I've never tried any of the on2-styles (no such people here).

[sweavo]

Has anyone tried using Son as a way to transition to on2-dancing? I haven't heard any one say there have, but I certainly sounds logical given that the timing is about the same, or is it?

I love the timing of the Son, but it also requires special music. I've never tried any of the on2-styles (no such people here).

I have the opposite problem. I would love to take Son classes, but don't know where I can find any. I do slip into Son timing/styling when I feel it in the music though. My follows are usually slightly bewildered but glad of a rest from constant turn patterns!

[Brendan]

Has anyone tried using Son as a way to transition to on2-dancing? I haven't heard any one say there have, but I certainly sounds logical given that the timing is about the same, or is it?

I love the timing of the Son, but it also requires special music. I've never tried any of the on2-styles (no such people here).

I've only done a little bit of son but the timing is 'power 2' rather than ET on2 and so sort of depends what you want to transition to. The emphasis is also on the 4 and 8 which gives it a very different feel (IMHO). Given the right music it's really nice to do and has a wonderful feel but it is quite different from on2 (again IMHO).

Brendan

[MacMoto]

Agree with Brendan on all points.

Personally, I found cha cha very useful for transition from on1 to ET2.

[chr]

I had an extremely embarassing situation last weekend.

There is a woman with whom started to come to salsa parties some months ago. She has very good technique and she dances EC-swing, too.

The first I saw her, I observed her dancing, and she was dancing ET2.

So after that every time I asked her, I sterted to dance on2 with her, and although it was not outright bad: she followed OK, it was never really smooth and there was a certain jerkiness in the dance. I thought, that my on2 lead is very poor, although it typically worked out much better with other follows.

Last weeked, when we danced, she started to step, and she stepped on 1. So I stopped and asked: on 1 or 2? Then she told that she does no know how to dance on2. I was really shocked as I always dance ET2 with her. Then we danced on 1 and it was 10X smoother than before, but she never complained before. I still feel awful, when I think of this...

[bailarina]

[quote=Ron Obvious]Has anyone tried using Son as a way to transition to on2-dancing? I haven't heard any one say there have, but I certainly sounds logical given that the timing is about the same, or is it?

I love the timing of the Son, but it also requires special music. I've never tried any of the on2-styles (no such people here).


What is Son? asks the newbie..... :oops: :?

[Salsamakossa]

CHr,

It's probably not as bad then since some other person made the same mistake and was dancing on2 with her when you first saw her dance?

The first I saw her, I observed her dancing, and she was dancing ET2.

[terence]

Steve, in reality, the original " break " step used by the old Cubans, was on 1. =--- from that interpretation came triple Mambo and Guajira .

The" 2 " influence was , was promoted , by and large , by the chain schools .

[chr]

CHr,

It's probably not as bad then since some other person made the same mistake and was dancing on2 with her when you first saw her dance?

The first I saw her, I observed her dancing, and she was dancing ET2.


OK, but why does it make less embarssing?

[Ron Obvious]

Has anyone tried using Son as a way to transition to on2-dancing? I haven't heard any one say there have, but I certainly sounds logical given that the timing is about the same, or is it?

I love the timing of the Son, but it also requires special music. I've never tried any of the on2-styles (no such people here).


What is Son? asks the newbie..... :oops: :?

It is the ancestor of salsa music, which is danced in a more calm way than salsa, and it starts on the second beat, so the timing is 2-3-4, 6-7-8. Think of Buena Vista Social Club. Maybe someone else can explain in a better way.

Welcome to salsaforums bailarina!

[terence]

So can Mambo-- if you hold the 1st beat-- Son as a musical entity- is written in a 4/6 timing.
The original form of danzon ( a form of sq, rhumba ) , the "root " of most that has appeared since .
Rhumba was being danced in 2 / 4 time , and changed to 4 / 4, in the forties ( the Birth of Mambo ) .
I am not aware of any current music written in that time signature , but it may be around somewhere .

[Ron Obvious]

Has anyone tried using Son as a way to transition to on2-dancing? I haven't heard any one say there have, but I certainly sounds logical given that the timing is about the same, or is it?

I love the timing of the Son, but it also requires special music. I've never tried any of the on2-styles (no such people here).

I've only done a little bit of son but the timing is 'power 2' rather than ET on2 and so sort of depends what you want to transition to. The emphasis is also on the 4 and 8 which gives it a very different feel (IMHO). Given the right music it's really nice to do and has a wonderful feel but it is quite different from on2 (again IMHO).

Brendan

So then I would like to ask: would it be easy to transition from Son to Power 2, and then via it to ET on2? Even if Son begins on 2, it has the accents actually on 4 and 8 too, wouldn't that make it helpful for ET2 as well? Or is a bigger problem the fact that you jave to reverse the phrasing when converting to ET on2? Meaning going backward when you're used to going forwards and vice versa.

[PielCanela]

this is just from my own personal experience, and I everyone learns different, but in my case I found that it was better to find the end goal and then just go straight for it. So if on2 ET is what you want I would suggest go for it, rather than use another style to get you there. In my case it proof too confusing to be doing other styles while I was learning a new one, it is hard enough to learn( learning right) a new style than adding more to the mix will probably make you a dancer of many, master of none.

Also note that on2 ET is very different from Power 2. While musically the goals are related, the physical presence of the body and body direction are similar to on1 than on2 ET. in my case the "reverse phrasing" as you put it was the hardest part, but also the foot position just wants to fight your mind all the way. with enough practice, and in my case staying away from other styles for a while, you can get a working knowledge of this concepts in a couple of months, but then is where the hard work begins, body movement, connection to the music, feeling the two because you can heard it rather than because you know that after 1, 2 comes, will take months if no years to master, and that is the beauty of it.

I am addicted to on2 ET, I can never think of any other way I would like to dance salsa. While I did casino for 6 months and on1 for 6 months, on2 ET is what makes my day. This is in no way a brush off on other styles, just a statement on my personal preference. akin to the fact that I like oak meal rather than corn flakes

[Salsamakossa]

PC,

I find this scandalous, and I think Jambo would agree... :lol: :lol: :lol: .

akin to the fact that I like oatmeal rather than corn flakes

[Jambo]

PC,

I find this scandalous, and I think Jambo would agree... :lol: :lol: :lol: .

akin to the fact that I like oatmeal rather than corn flakes

Have we had breakfast together? :shock:

[MacMoto]

So then I would like to ask: would it be easy to transition from Son to Power 2, and then via it to ET on2? Even if Son begins on 2, it has the accents actually on 4 and 8 too, wouldn't that make it helpful for ET2 as well? Or is a bigger problem the fact that you jave to reverse the phrasing when converting to ET on2? Meaning going backward when you're used to going forwards and vice versa.

I don't dance Power 2 so I can't really say anything about making a transition from Son to P2, but I really don't think Son is helpful for ET2. The reverse thing (lead breaking back first) may be a factor too I suppose, but to me the main thing is that Son has such a different feel from that of ET2, where you aim to hit the 2/6 (as opposed to the 4/8 in Son).

[Salsamakossa]

Jambo,

You would know...lol. I meant scandalous that he would compare dancing on1/2 to oatmeal/cornflakes.... certainly kidding though...

PC,

I find this scandalous, and I think Jambo would agree... :lol: :lol: :lol: .

akin to the fact that I like oatmeal rather than corn flakes

Have we had breakfast together? :shock:

[tj]

What is Son? asks the newbie..... :oops: :?

Welcome to salsaforums bailarina!

Ditto!

[PielCanela]

Jambo,

You would know...lol. I meant scandalous that he would compare dancing on1/2 to oatmeal/cornflakes.... certainly kidding though...

PC,

I find this scandalous, and I think Jambo would agree... :lol: :lol: :lol: .

akin to the fact that I like oatmeal rather than corn flakes

Have we had breakfast together? :shock:

you two are funny, the oatmeal/cornflakes reference was a tongue in cheek comment, illustrating the fact that people like different things, and while discussion of the merits of such a like is unwarranted, this does not preclude the individual to express his/her enthusiastic view of the subject of his/her affection, while at the same time this raving expressions should not be seen as a put down on the likes of others :) :)

[Salsamakossa]

Bump...

[chrisk]

Bump...

Nice reminder that I've been to busy the last two weeks with other stuff and forgot to work on my On2. But even though there's no salsa party this weekend, I'm think I'll practice a bit at home. I really want to feel as comfortable dancing on2 as I dance on1.

[sweavo]

On the son/P2/ET2 thing ... I've been putting in son-style and P2-style timing for a while now, and I'm finding it harder and harder to do ET2 timing... it feels to me much less expressive than P2 especially on older mambo and charanga. Speaking of which, there was some AWESOME music from Chris Mee and Gary at salsology last night! Such a variety of flavours while scarcely playing anything to offend the 'purists'

[Salsamakossa]

On the subject of the proximity (or not) between P2 and ET2, we were watching a Jami Josephson DVD, and she said that she uses both P2 and ET2 steps in the course of dancing on2, depending on the move that was being executed. I think this just goes to reinforce how close, yet different these two styles are.

[KiwiSalsa]

Okay, here's the thing. I dance On1, I've had a couple of ET2 lessons and a couple of Cha-cha-cha lessons, and read about Power2, but there are a few questions that I haven't seen covered anywhere:

Before that, a quick check for my clarity (Leader's steps):

On1 -
1 - L forward
2 - R in place
3 - L back in place
4 - pause (yeah yeah, moving back slowly)
5 - R back
6 - L in place
7 - R back in place
8 - pause

ET2 -
1 - L step in place
2 - R back
3 - L step in place
4 - pause
5 - R step in place
6 - L forward
7 - R step in place
8 - pause

Power2 -
1 - pause
2 - L forward
3 - R in place
4 - L back in place
5 - pause
6 - R back
7 - L in place
8 - R back in place

So my questions are these:

1. If Eddie Torres developed ET2 to make it easier for non-Latinos to understand (possibly due to the European-style marching technique that always starts on the first beat of the bar and the related difficulty of hearing the 2 compared to the 1), what came beforehand? What was the style that he had to make an easier-to-learn version of? Was it Power2?if not, then what was it called and how was it danced?

2. Why do you break back on the 2 and not forward? It feels strange stressing the 6 by stepping forward (Leader's steps), and more natural / powerful / musical to step forward on the 2.

3. If the reason for stepping back is etiquette (ladies first...) then why not start by breaking back on the 6, then forward on the 2 (start halfway through the measure)? I know it's kind of all the same - that the 6 is the simply the second beat of the second bar of the measure - but if the reason for dancing On2 is all about musicality, then it feels strange to lead by stepping back. (BTW, I've also heard 'never take a back step to a women', so you've got two competing philosophies: one is etiquette - ladies first, with the rationale that you don't step on her toes if you confuse the starting step; and the other is history / provenance - salsa is a masculine dance from a masculine culture, so leading strongly forward seems to fit).

4. So the obvious question is: what do you call the following (or does it even exist)?

1 - R step in place (middle)
2 - L forward
3 - R middle
4 - pause
5 - L middle
6 - R back
7 - L middle
8 - pause

It's just ET2 Follower's steps but danced by the Lead, or alternatively, ET2 starting from the 6, but if you lead this with a lady, then you risk injury / embarassment.

Any views out there?

[Salsamakossa]

Ok Kiwi,

Actually, the step you described as Power2 (P2) is the Puerto Rican on2 step, or PR2. The Power2 step is the reverse, with the leader breaking backwards on the 2, and forward on the 6, just like with ET2 style dancing.

Also, the ET2 purists might argue that there is a slight step backward on the 1 (see page one of this thread), and a slight step forward on 5 ... lol.

As to your questions, I would leave it to those who have a better grasp of the history of on2 dancing. Suffice to say that it is open to a lot of conjecture. There are several on2 threads here, including this one, that might shed some light on your answers if you do a search, and then read them lol...


ET2 -
1 - L step in place
2 - R back
3 - L step in place
4 - pause
5 - R step in place
6 - L forward
7 - R step in place
8 - pause

Power2 -
1 - pause
2 - L forward
3 - R in place
4 - L back in place
5 - pause
6 - R back
7 - L in place
8 - R back in place

[KiwiSalsa]

Ohhhh...riiiight...thanks Salsamakossa.

Thanks for me helping me understand. Maybe I had been thinking about this a little too much, but logically, if you can start on L or R and on 1 or on 2, there had to be four different styles, right?

[Salsamakossa]

In principle yes. But, as you might realize, it does not stop there. I think Cubans dance on3, and on it goes... lol.

Ohhhh...riiiight...thanks Salsamakossa.

Thanks for me helping me understand. Maybe I had been thinking about this a little too much, but logically, if you can start on L or R and on 1 or on 2, there had to be four different styles, right?

[noobster]

1. If Eddie Torres developed ET2 to make it easier for non-Latinos to understand
I never heard that. I thought it was just a natural variant that felt good and fit a certain kind of music?

2. Why do you break back on the 2 and not forward? It feels strange stressing the 6 by stepping forward (Leader's steps), and more natural / powerful / musical to step forward on the 2.

Well somebody has to step back on the 2. Either leader or follower. I don't see a reason other than convention to have it one way or the other.

3. If the reason for stepping back is etiquette (ladies first...) then why not start by breaking back on the 6, then forward on the 2 (start halfway through the measure)?
A lot of guys in NYC do this - weight-shift in place a bit, then begin the dance by breaking forward on the 6.


4. So the obvious question is: what do you call the following (or does it even exist)?

1 - R step in place (middle)
2 - L forward
3 - R middle
4 - pause
5 - L middle
6 - R back
7 - L middle
8 - pause

It's just ET2 Follower's steps but danced by the Lead, or alternatively, ET2 starting from the 6, but if you lead this with a lady, then you risk injury / embarassment.

It's called reversing your 2 and your 6. Nothing wrong with it IMHO, although I've heard from my male friends that some followers are irritated by it. Seems a rather petty thing to get upset about to me.

[SnowDancer]

2. Why do you break back on the 2 and not forward? It feels strange stressing the 6 by stepping forward (Leader's steps), and more natural / powerful / musical to step forward on the 2.

3. If the reason for stepping back is etiquette (ladies first...) then why not start by breaking back on the 6, then forward on the 2 (start halfway through the measure)?

I was told by my On2 instructor that 'ladies first' was the reason. It's also why On2 classes always practice shines using the ladies' timing.

In any case, ET2 is just a step to be learned, and I don't see any reason to question it.

[ankhra]

in answer to your questions:
ET did not come up with the basic step he teaches - that was a step that was developed in the 50's by the ballroom studios because non-latinos who wanted to dance on 2 could not find the 2 beat. they could find the 1 beat so it made sense to use the 1 as a preparation for getting to the 2.

what came before?
what some people call the power 2. most everyone in the 50's and beyond was dancing this basic step pattern - whether it was on 1 or on2. the structure of the power 2 is exactly the same as the on1 basic step.

dancing forward or back on 6?
the whole thing is just a choice. there is nothing in the music or in the basic step (regardless of which one you do) that dictates whether you should start forward or back or to break forward on 6 or forward on 2. it is totally arbitrary. over time things tend to become dogma. some dancers who go forward on 6 will say "well, it doesn't feel right going forward on 2." Of course it doesn't - if you have been doing something a certain way, whenever you change it it's going to feel funny - or not right. the whole thing is kind of ridiculous.

[KiwiSalsa]

Thanks for the clarity. Great first post.

Depending on your point of view, I'm either one of those annoying bastards who'll continually ask "why?" when told to do something in a particular way, or I'm genuinely interested in the history and evolution of salsa...

Probably a bit of both.

All I know is this: if you want to teach me something effectively, then don't just tell me what to do - tell me why I'm doing it. For example, for reasons of etiquette - ladies first - and practicality - you are less likely to step on her toes - step back on the 2 then forward on the 6. To me, it's a much better answer than simply: "don't know", or "that's just the way it is" or "I'm just doing what I'm told."

And if it's ridiculous to ask these kinds of questions on a forum dedicated to salsa, then where should they be asked?

[Jones, Nikka]

...All I know is this: if you want to teach me something effectively, then don't just tell me what to do - tell me why I'm doing it...

And if it's ridiculous to ask these kinds of questions on a forum dedicated to salsa, then where should they be asked?

Spot on! I tell this to my students every day: If you do not know why you are learning... You are not learning at all!

As for questioning why things are the way they are: Good for you! Humans have evolved and progressed mainly because a few people keep rocking the boat, asking questions and questioning the answers and the status quo. Of course, a professional teacher will always welcome such questions.

[esa negrita...]

In ET2, does it frequently come up that follows are dancing, stepping back with the left on 1 as opposed to forward with the right? Basically, do they end up dancing in the lead's footwork?

I ask because I took an ET2 class (which I really enjoyed) and we did the basic stepping forward on1. I don't have any serious issues with this...but...when we started partner work it was a completely different story. The follows were stepping back with the left on 1 and that was difficult to say the least. Even my XBLs felt funky. Do I have to worry about this coming up a lot in social dancing?

[rjoe92057]

In ET2, does it frequently come up that follows are dancing, stepping back with the left on 1 as opposed to forward with the right? Basically, do they end up dancing in the lead's footwork?

I ask because I took an ET2 class (which I really enjoyed) and we did the basic stepping forward on1. I don't have any serious issues with this...but...when we started partner work it was a completely different story. The follows were stepping back with the left on 1 and that was difficult to say the least. Even my XBLs felt funky. Do I have to worry about this coming up a lot in social dancing?

Occasionally you will get that but not very often. When the song switches (5 becomes 1) some leaders will not pick up the change and continue in reverse. Dancing in reverse never feels right to me so I always switch by occupying 4 counts with something or breaking into shines and picking her back up on time.

I'm surprised your instructor did not pick up on that and get everyone on the right count.

[peachexploration]

In ET2, does it frequently come up that follows are dancing, stepping back with the left on 1 as opposed to forward with the right? Basically, do they end up dancing in the lead's footwork?

I ask because I took an ET2 class (which I really enjoyed) and we did the basic stepping forward on1. I don't have any serious issues with this...but...when we started partner work it was a completely different story. The follows were stepping back with the left on 1 and that was difficult to say the least. Even my XBLs felt funky. Do I have to worry about this coming up a lot in social dancing?

Breakdown for ET2 should be:
1st beat of the measure - The man steps back with his left foot. The woman steps forward with her right foot.

2nd beat of the measure - The man steps farther back with his right foot, then changes direction, starting to lean forward with his body = "breaks forward on 2". The woman steps farther forward with her left foot, then changes direction, starting to lean back with her body = "breaking back on 2".

3rd beat of the measure - The man steps in place with his left foot, while his body is moving forward. The woman steps in place with her right foot, while her body is moving backward.

4th beat of the measure - No steps.

5th beat of the measure - The man steps forward with his right foot, in front of his left foot. The woman steps backward with her left foot, behind her right foot.

6th beat of the measure - The man steps farther forward with his left foot, then changes direction, starting to lean backward with his body = "breaks back on 6". The woman steps farther back with her right foot, then changes direction, starting to lean forward = "breaks forward on 6".

7th beat of the measure - The man steps in place with his right foot, while his body is moving backward. The woman steps in place with her left foot, while her body is moving forward.

8th beat of the measure - No steps.[/quote]

[chr]

4. So the obvious question is: what do you call the following (or does it even exist)?

1 - R step in place (middle)
2 - L forward
3 - R middle
4 - pause
5 - L middle
6 - R back
7 - L middle
8 - pause

It's just ET2 Follower's steps but danced by the Lead, or alternatively, ET2 starting from the 6, but if you lead this with a lady, then you risk injury / embarassment.

It's called reversing your 2 and your 6. Nothing wrong with it IMHO, although I've heard from my male friends that some followers are irritated by it. Seems a rather petty thing to get upset about to me.

Actually, it is also called Puerto Rican style. My private instructor mostly dances this style, but I try to stick to the other direction for training purposes when leading her.

Coming from on1, I slightly prefer the "forward first" direction, but I try to dance both, while being consistent within the same song. None of my partner has expressed her irritation about this, as long as I did not change within the song.

[chr]

I'd have another question.

My private instructor sometimes corrects my ET2 steps, saying that its feel should be "slow-quick-quick, slow-quick-quick" Instead of "quick-quick-slow". Logically, it would imply breaking on 3, but she keeps telling that on3 is very different. She can actually demonstrate this subtle difference and if she leads that a while once I get the hang of it, I have no problem reproducing it during the whole song myself, but I occasionally miss it again in a new song.

Generally, I have a problem understanding this issue in an abstract manner. I don't know whether the "slow-quick-quick" illusion is generated by taking the on 1 step slightly earlier or delaying break step on 2 a bit, or by some different means.

I'd be happy to hear any expert opinion on this...

[Offbeat]

Generally, I have a problem understanding this issue in an abstract manner. I don't know whether the "slow-quick-quick" illusion is generated by taking the on 1 step slightly earlier or delaying break step on 2 a bit, or by some different means.

I'd be happy to hear any expert opinion on this...

I am not at all an expert and will go out on limb on this one. Just applying my thinking to what you wrote, I think you are right about on 1 step part. That seems most plausible explanation.

Quick-Quick is definitely 2-3 or 6-7. In which case the slow would be -and-1, -and-5.

The closest analogy I can think of is Tumbao rhythm which is taught/sung as Toom-Toom-PA; where as the actual direction if counted to 1-2-3-4 is PA-Toom-Toom

[Salsamakossa]

Chr,

Personally I think too much analysis makes things complicated sometimes. I think that if you stick to the beat you will be just fine. What's more I don't really pause when I dance, be it on1, ET2 or P2, so I guess the issue does not arise for me.

I'd have another question.

My private instructor sometimes corrects my ET2 steps, saying that its feel should be "slow-quick-quick, slow-quick-quick" Instead of "quick-quick-slow". Logically, it would imply breaking on 3, but she keeps telling that on3 is very different. She can actually demonstrate this subtle difference and if she leads that a while once I get the hang of it, I have no problem reproducing it during the whole song myself, but I occasionally miss it again in a new song.

Generally, I have a problem understanding this issue in an abstract manner. I don't know whether the "slow-quick-quick" illusion is generated by taking the on 1 step slightly earlier or delaying break step on 2 a bit, or by some different means.

I'd be happy to hear any expert opinion on this...

[chr]

Personally I think too much analysis makes things complicated sometimes. I think that if you stick to the beat you will be just fine.

My private instructor is pretty serious about this and she demonstrated it that it really matters. She also told me that no reasonable dancer dances ET2 by just counting 1-2-3.

I can feel the difference myself, but I can't put my finger on it. I think that by understanding it could help me to reliable reproduce the same feeling.

[rjoe92057]

My private instructor sometimes corrects my ET2 steps, saying that its feel should be "slow-quick-quick, slow-quick-quick" Instead of "quick-quick-slow". Logically, it would imply breaking on 3, but she keeps telling that on3 is very different. She can actually demonstrate this subtle difference and if she leads that a while once I get the hang of it, I have no problem reproducing it during the whole song myself, but I occasionally miss it again in a new song.

Generally, I have a problem understanding this issue in an abstract manner. I don't know whether the "slow-quick-quick" illusion is generated by taking the on 1 step slightly earlier or delaying break step on 2 a bit, or by some different means.

I'd be happy to hear any expert opinion on this...

Your instructor is right :)

There is no beat between 2 and 3 so 2-3 is the "quick quick".
There is no beat between 6 and 7 so 6-7 is the "quick quick".

Between 7 and 1 there is beat 8 so when you are travelling from 7 to 1 you have to "slow" down to use up the 8 beat.

Between 3 and 5 there is beat 4 so when you are travelling from 3 to 5 you have to "slow" down to use up the 4 beat.

The best way to get the feeling is to forget about numbers or “slow quick quick”. Do the basic to a conga track from a timing CD. At your next lesson, ask your instructor to go over the basic with the conga track playing. Within 5 minutes your body will get the feeling and light bulbs will go off in your head.

[rjoe92057]

Personally I think too much analysis makes things complicated sometimes. I think that if you stick to the beat you will be just fine.

My private instructor is pretty serious about this and she demonstrated it that it really matters. She also told me that no reasonable dancer dances ET2 by just counting 1-2-3.

I can feel the difference myself, but I can't put my finger on it. I think that by understanding it could help me to reliable reproduce the same feeling.

That is great your instructor is serious about this issue. She has the right feel for On2 so stick with her! This feeling is one of the things that many On1 dancers converting to On2 don't get. My instructor from New York used to call it dancing On2ish. He used to always demonstrate the turn pattern On2ish and then On2 so the right feeling got ingrained in my mind and body. He said he never had to demo this difference when teaching in New York because New Yorkers pick it up automatically because they are surrounded by people doing it that way.

[chr]

Between 7 and 1 there is beat 8 so when you are travelling from 7 to 1 you have to "slow" down to use up the 8 beat.

I have no doubt that you are right, still I don't really get it abstractly.

My main problem is that what you write is true, no matter how I step. How does it come that I can dance ET2 incorrectly?

BTW, I am very content with my instructor as she is really world class, however there are sometimes issues she just feels and has a hard time formally elaborating on.

[rjoe92057]

Between 7 and 1 there is beat 8 so when you are travelling from 7 to 1 you have to "slow" down to use up the 8 beat.

I have no doubt that you are right, still I don't really get it abstractly.

My main problem is that what you write is true, no matter how I step. How does it come that I can dance ET2 incorrectly?

BTW, I am very content with my instructor as she is really world class, however there are sometimes issues she just feels and has a hard time formally elaborating on.

OK, lets try not thinking about it and feeling it. To get the right feeling you should cut hard on beats 2 and 6. By cutting hard I mean pressing your foot more into the ground than the other beats. This will trigger rib cage movement. Now feel and milk this body movement - this is your slow, feel it. Depending on how you feel the music you can even milk it more (slow it down) by taking up some of the 4 (or 8 ). As long as you can get back and hit the 5 (or 1) on time. This will give you the "slow quick quick" feeling. Of course you should be on the balls of your feet always. You won't feel much rib cage movement flat footed.

Compare the above to not cutting hard on 2 and 6. Even though you are still on time it probably feels "123" instead of "slow quick quick".

It's hard to explain this in words. Far easier to demonstrate one on one.

[Flex]

To get the right feeling you should cut hard on beats 2 and 6.

Also my take on it - it's an emphasis on hitting the 2 and 6 with your break that gives the feeling. Another trick while getting the hang of it is to count out loud just the '2' and the '6', hitting those words hard.

And I guess that hitting the direction change does indeed make you take a fraction longer over the beat on which it occurs although the 'slows' are just the same:
On1: QUICK(1) quick(2) slow(3-4)...
On2: quick(1) QUICK(2) slow(3-4)...
And matching these mental rhythms to the music helps to pick out which tracks lend themselves best to On1 and which to On2, IMO.

[Salsamakossa]

Rjoe,

I think your point is articulate. It is more about the groove. Even when I had not yet started dancing on2, the on2 guys here always said that I was dancing on1 with an on2 feel. It is all about how you choose to smoothen out your counting, and grooving through the steps.


Personally I think too much analysis makes things complicated sometimes. I think that if you stick to the beat you will be just fine.

My private instructor is pretty serious about this and she demonstrated it that it really matters. She also told me that no reasonable dancer dances ET2 by just counting 1-2-3.

I can feel the difference myself, but I can't put my finger on it. I think that by understanding it could help me to reliable reproduce the same feeling.

That is great your instructor is serious about this issue. She has the right feel for On2 so stick with her! This feeling is one of the things that many On1 dancers converting to On2 don't get. My instructor from New York used to call it dancing On2ish. He used to always demonstrate the turn pattern On2ish and then On2 so the right feeling got ingrained in my mind and body. He said he never had to demo this difference when teaching in New York because New Yorkers pick it up automatically because they are surrounded by people doing it that way.

[sweavo]

I have nothing to contribute to this discussion except to say it's fascinating and thanks for the posts so far!

[Jambo]

I noticed two things last night that I really need to work on:

When dancing On1, if the guy ends up on women's timing and goes forward on 5 I end up one beat behind him and switch to On2 without even thinking, it happened twice :oops: actually one was ok 'cos we ended up having a very nice dance On2 for the rest of the track but the other was a bit :? for a while (he doesn't dance On2) until I got a grip and managed to 'encourage' him to switch back to men's timing.

Other thing was when leading On2 I switch to On1 after leading multi turns or spins, the urge to go forward On 1 is just too strong :shock: especially if there's a big accent in the music on the 1 beat. I've never done a lesson leading On2 but manage ok with everything else, it just seems to happen after spins :?. Conclusion - need to do some lessons leading On2.

PS I was leading MacMoto and even with my On1/On2 issues I thoroughly enjoyed the dance - she's such a lovely dancer :D and we're gonna miss her here in the UK :(

[chr]

And I guess that hitting the direction change does indeed make you take a fraction longer over the beat on which it occurs although the 'slows' are just the same:
On1: QUICK(1) quick(2) slow(3-4)...
On2: quick(1) QUICK(2) slow(3-4)...
And matching these mental rhythms to the music helps to pick out which tracks lend themselves best to On1 and which to On2, IMO.

That I would understand, however my instructor wants me to reproduce the following fell:

slow(1) quick(2) quick(3)

[quixotedlm]

And I guess that hitting the direction change does indeed make you take a fraction longer over the beat on which it occurs although the 'slows' are just the same:
On1: QUICK(1) quick(2) slow(3-4)...
On2: quick(1) QUICK(2) slow(3-4)...
And matching these mental rhythms to the music helps to pick out which tracks lend themselves best to On1 and which to On2, IMO.

That I would understand, however my instructor wants me to reproduce the following fell:

slow(1) quick(2) quick(3)


ummm...you can't. "slow" is slow because it spans more than one count... since the music will keep the same time for '1' and '2', you can't do slow on (1) and quick on (2).

[MacMoto]

PS I was leading MacMoto and even with my On1/On2 issues I thoroughly enjoyed the dance - she's such a lovely dancer :D and we're gonna miss her here in the UK :(
Ooo thanks! :oops: I enjoyed the dance too :D - the on1/on2 thing was interesting... kept me on my toes! :lol:

[noobster]

Yeah, but you can steal the time from either the pause-beat behind or the one ahead.

You can steal the front of the 8 to extend your 7, or the back of the 8 to extend your 1.

Likewise you can steal the front of the 4 to extend your 3, or the back of the 4 to extend your 5.

If you always steal the front of the pause beat, you get quick-quick-slow.

If you always steal the back of the pause beat, you get slow-quick-quick.

Can do this on either timing but I agree that on2 there was a tendency to steal from the back of the 8 to extend the 1, whereas on1 there was a tendency to steal from the front of the 4 to extend the 3. Not sure why, might be a dance-culture thing again.

And I definitely agree with rjoe that grinding into the 2 and 6 is a big part of the feel of the on2 basic. Somehow I can't grind into the 1 and 5 with the same amount of oomph; might be just me though.

*********************

Edit:

Okay, I thought about it a little more and I think I might know why you steal the front for on2 and the back for on1.

It's because you can use the slow step to work up to your break.
The break step is always sharp; you don't want to extend that beat because it would make your break mushy. So instead you extend the previous step and use the flow to work up to the bang of the break.

On2 you are using the 1 and 5 to ramp up to your break step. It is like you use the whole 8-and-1 to rest down and then rev up to that bang! on2.

On1 your break comes right after the pause. So instead you extend the previous step (7-and-8 ), flow through the pause and then hit the break staccato.

I wonder if this is why ET2 feels punchier to me - because you start from the rest and work smoothly up into the break, with three steps of momentum shooting you forward; vs with on1 you have the pause right before the break so you lose some momentum.

[chr]

It's because you can use the slow step to work up to your break.
The break step is always sharp; you don't want to extend that beat because it would make your break mushy. So instead you extend the previous step and use the flow to work up to the bang of the break.

Wow, this is an excellent explanation. I tried with music, and it makes perfect sense. Thanks!

BTW, it would logically imply that on1 and power2 are superior to ET2 since it gives the biggest bang...

[noobster]

Wow, this is an excellent explanation. I tried with music, and it makes perfect sense. Thanks!

BTW, it would logically imply that on1 and power2 are superior to ET2 since it gives the biggest bang...

Whatever, I'm not getting into that. :P
But I'm glad someone finds my maunderings useful. :)

[chr]

By cutting hard I mean pressing your foot more into the ground than the other beats. This will trigger rib cage movement. Now feel and milk this body movement - this is your slow, feel it. Depending on how you feel the music you can even milk it more (slow it down) by taking up some of the 4 (or 8 ). As long as you can get back and hit the 5 (or 1) on time. This will give you the "slow quick quick" feeling. Of course you should be on the balls of your feet always.

Just an addition: I was taught to do the rock step by placing all my weight to the stepping leg, but don't give in at all, but use it to push my whole body in the opposite direction. The technique requires staying on the ball all time and not changing the angle of the foot and floor during the rock step.This is kind of hard as it requires real muscle effort. OTOH, I was taught to make the other two steps almost flat.

[rjoe92057]

I wonder if this is why ET2 feels punchier to me - because you start from the rest and work smoothly up into the break, with three steps of momentum shooting you forward; vs with on1 you have the pause right before the break so you lose some momentum


That is why ET2 also feels punchier to me as well. Take the followers CBL inside turn for example. After the break and she steps forward right foot on beat 1, it is all go from 1 to 2 and then spin.

Whereas On1, after the break she steps forward right foot on 3 and then their is that 4 slowing down/interrupting the momentum. It feels like the pause is in the wrong place.

People often say you have more time On2. This is because the pause is at the end of a movement not in the middle. This is also why On2 looks different and looks slower because there is more contrast between quick and slow.

Let's take the basic as an example. The pause is on beats 4 and 8. On2, the pause is at the end of the rock step. Since you have completed any forward or backward movement and are in place/stationary during the rock step, adding the pause after that extends the time you are in one place which is why it feels and looks slow here. On1, the pause occurs while you are moving forward or backward. You then take the rock step in place after which you have no pause and must step forward or backward immediately.

[rjoe92057]

By cutting hard I mean pressing your foot more into the ground than the other beats. This will trigger rib cage movement. Now feel and milk this body movement - this is your slow, feel it. Depending on how you feel the music you can even milk it more (slow it down) by taking up some of the 4 (or 8 ). As long as you can get back and hit the 5 (or 1) on time. This will give you the "slow quick quick" feeling. Of course you should be on the balls of your feet always.

Just an addition: I was taught to do the rock step by placing all my weight to the stepping leg, but don't give in at all, but use it to push my whole body in the opposite direction. The technique requires staying on the ball all time and not changing the angle of the foot and floor during the rock step.This is kind of hard as it requires real muscle effort. OTOH, I was taught to make the other two steps almost flat.

It shouldn't require real muscle effort. Once you transfer your weight to the stepping leg you should just spring back to the other leg without much muscular effort. Take push ups for example. You drop down without pausing at the bottom and spring back up - minimal musclar effort required. You drop down and pause a little - requires a lot of muscle effort to get back up.

When you walk you transfer weight from one leg to the next. That is enough for you body to move without real muscle effort. If you hop with one leg that requires a lot of muscle effort.

[PielCanela]

Thanks for the replies everyone. :) ON2 it is then. I suppose you can always explain why you are breaking backwards instead of forwards if there is any confusion as to whether that is the right or wrong way to dance.

Thanks to these forums and of course YouTube, the early exposure to all these different styles has been really helpful in learning to be a flexible dancer. Just have to keep dancing ON2 at every oppertunity now - try and keep the balance between that and ON1 etc. :)


note that on2 (as you mentioned it) breaks backwards, however power on2 is a whole other style, very different from on2 not only because yes, it does breaks foward, but more important it holds the 1 beat, static, no movement, then starts the dance by breaking in the second beat, (just imagine on1 being done one beat later and you have power on2).

on2 does have a break foward version, but that is call Puerto Rico on2. same like ET2 only that the man breaks foward in the second beat. ( to make it simpler, reverse the footwork of man and woman of ET2 and you get on2 puerto rican style

[sweavo]

BTW, it would logically imply that on1 and power2 are superior to ET2 since it gives the biggest bang...

In the same way as Early Reader books have the biggest letters?

[Salsamakossa]

Actually, even dancing on1, I don't pause before the break. So I try to keep moving between the breaks, to remove the jerky movement which would otherwise occur.

I wonder if this is why ET2 feels punchier to me - because you start from the rest and work smoothly up into the break, with three steps of momentum shooting you forward; vs with on1 you have the pause right before the break so you lose some momentum.

[chr]

I wonder if this is why ET2 feels punchier to me - because you start from the rest and work smoothly up into the break, with three steps of momentum shooting you forward; vs with on1 you have the pause right before the break so you lose some momentum.

Sorry, I overlooked this argument. I was reading way too superficially... :(

[chr]

It shouldn't require real muscle effort. Once you transfer your weight to the stepping leg you should just spring back to the other leg without much muscular effort. Take push ups for example. You drop down without pausing at the bottom and spring back up - minimal musclar effort required. You drop down and pause a little - requires a lot of muscle effort to get back up.

It is hard for me to reproduce your technique by this description.

The way I was taught involves keeping the weight 100% on the stepping leg, while the body is upright and sliding in horizontal direction. Additionally, it is essential that the angle between the stepping foot and the floor does not change the slightest while the leg straightens.

There is a lot of muscle effort since the fully body weight is on the ball of one foot and the body has to be upright during the whole step.

[noobster]

Actually, even dancing on1, I don't pause before the break. So I try to keep moving between the breaks, to remove the jerky movement which would otherwise occur.

I wonder if this is why ET2 feels punchier to me - because you start from the rest and work smoothly up into the break, with three steps of momentum shooting you forward; vs with on1 you have the pause right before the break so you lose some momentum.

I don't mean you stop moving completely during the pause, of course; there's some body flow but no stepping. It isn't jerky but it does function to decrease the dancer's momentum.

This kind of harks back to what I was talking about at the bottom of page 16 with "stealing the pause." The body movement during the pause is a natural extension of the steps surrounding it. You can choose to make it more a part of your movement on the 3 (thus stealing the front of the 4 for a q-q-s feeling), or you can make it more a part of your movement on the 5 (thus stealing the back of the 4 for s-q-q).


By cutting hard I mean pressing your foot more into the ground than the other beats. This will trigger rib cage movement. Now feel and milk this body movement - this is your slow, feel it.
I was taught to do the rock step by placing all my weight to the stepping leg, but don't give in at all, but use it to push my whole body in the opposite direction. The technique requires staying on the ball all time and not changing the angle of the foot and floor during the rock step.This is kind of hard as it requires real muscle effort.

Umm... so are you both agreeing that you grind the ball of your foot into the floor on the break step?? What's the argument here, I'm confused. :?

(Except is chr perhaps using 'rock step' to mean 'break step' and rjoe using it to mean the step just after the break step?)