Dancing On2 with dancers who have danced On1

[mexi_gabacho]

Ok, well... those of you that know me, know that I've started taking On2 classes and enjoying them. I'm getting alot of benefit from them (lots of new shines and body-movement), but I have one frustration...

I can take someone who has danced On1 before, and I can lead them quite well On2. However, when I take someone who is native On2 (we're talking primarily girls from the On2 classes, since the On2 scene here is still growing), I have real trouble leading them.

:?

It perplexes me sometimes, because I almost feel like taking Beginner On2 classes is holding me back, even though there are still plenty of things I'm hoping to get and learn from the class. It seems that since MOST of the girls (not all, I can think of a few exceptions) don't seem to have following skills at all, so I feel more like I'm pulling and tugging the girls around, therefore it is rather hard for me to get a 'feel' for On2 in that situation.

It's a complex problem, because I teach On1 and there are girls who also teach at the same studio who know and dance On2. I can dance On2 with them pretty well. I just wanted to know if there are others who have this same problem.

I honestly am starting to think that perhaps alot of the women there are not gaining very much in the 'following-skills' area, but that's just how it 'feels' right now. I've always tried to take the approach that you point at yourself as a lead FIRST, always.. (then, when you are sure it is not you, you STILL assume it you once again - that's what I teach the guys in my classes). So, I guess that's where the frustration lies.
:?:

I enjoy the On2 classes alot, and the instructor is an exceptional dancer (VERY exceptional) and a fun person, however the way that they teach partnerwork is very frustrating to me, because they spend alot of time breaking down the hand changes, etc.... but not much on the timing of the move. Because of this, I spend most of time trying to figure what the footwork is when they are explaining something else. Maybe I am accustomed to learning new moves a certain way, and that is what is killing me.... but, it is a frustrating endeavor, nonetheless. Perhaps, I'm just seeking moral support (this is where you tell me "It'll be ok,baby" :) ) :D

[peachexploration]

Let me just say that I feel you, muchacho. :friend:

....I can take someone who has danced On1 before, and I can lead them quite well On2. However, when I take someone who is native On2 (we're talking primarily girls from the On2 classes, since the On2 scene here is still growing), I have real trouble leading them.....Maybe it's not so much you not being able to lead them On2, it's probably more that they haven't had dance classes until now? So for an experienced On1 dancer, it will be a little frustrating in beginner On2 classes. Particularly since alot of the mechanics of dancing i.e., leading and following skills have been already acquired by you.

.... I almost feel like taking Beginner On2 classes is holding me back, even though there are still plenty of things I'm hoping to get and learn from the class. I feel the same way about some of the leads BUT I have to keep in mind that they are very new to dance and are just beginning to grasp not only the footwork but timing, music and basic leading skills.

....I honestly am starting to think that perhaps alot of the women there are not gaining very much in the 'following-skills' area, but that's just how it 'feels' right now. I've always tried to take the approach that you point at yourself as a lead FIRST, always. So, I guess that's where the frustration lies...Well, one thing and this is my own observation: Since these are drop-in classes, there is a problem on behalf of the students and I have experienced this with On1 as well: Consistency. You have quite a few students for many reasons unknown, who are only able to come to class once a month and don't really have the time, desire, etc. to dedicate to dance so whatever they learn last month, (and most times it was that one class where we went over basic following and leading skills), is lost.

.... Maybe I'm used to learning new moves a certain way, and that is what is killing me.... but, it is a frustrating endeavor, nonetheless. Perhaps, I'm just seeking moral support (this is where you tell me "It'll be ok,baby" :) ) :DNot putting words in your mouth or telling you how to feel BUT the issue is that you're just not a "beginning" dancer and that's why it's frustrating. I think for you, private classes are the answer. :) For most dancers who've had a few years of On1 under their belt, the main thing for On2 is the timing and you can get that from private classes and then maybe hit the intermediate/advance classes. :)

[dc]

I find that it could be really frustrating for the lady if you try to lead her (in a serious manner) on 2 and she doesn't know how to dance it well---UNLESS you both take it lightly. Let me explain...the lady could be intimidated if she thinks that she's being "judged" by her ability to keep the On 2 beat.

In general, I may ask if she prefers to dance On1 or On2. On many occasions, she may say she's just learning On 2 but would like to try to do it. With this communication, and with many smiles, it becomes fun and often she appreciates the opportunity to develop on2 without being intimidated.

Regarding patterns, you can do the identical ones On1 or On2. The trick is not the steps but listening to the music differently---going back to feeling the music and the accents On2 and On6. What worked for me is just listening to a whole lotta salsa (in the car, work, IPOD...) and counting and hearing the accents....then "translating" all the fine steps you did On1 to On2 becomes automatic....

[salcero2005]

Great advice DC :D

[hopelessly_addicted]

I can take someone who has danced On1 before, and I can lead them quite well On2. However, when I take someone who is native On2 (we're talking primarily girls from the On2 classes, since the On2 scene here is still growing), I have real trouble leading them.
Hey I have a similar problem except the other way around since I'm a follower. I can follow on2 leads who are learning on2, but I have problem following the native on2 leads (leads from NY or those who learnt to dance salsa on2). I wonder why..

Just based on watching the on2 video clips online, I'm guessing that the cause of this problem lies in the fact that on2 leads tend to kinda glide on the floor, not really stepping through the beats very distinctively. Thus as a follower, unless I can hold on2 beats myself (which I cannot atm), I have a problem following....

[sharon]

I think part of the problem is that "new" on2 dancers, who previously danced on1, still lead on1 while dancing on2...

[hopelessly_addicted]

I think part of the problem is that "new" on2 dancers, who previously danced on1, still lead on1 while dancing on2...

hmm that's interesting. Can you please elaborate on what you meant by how they still lead on1?

edit: Welcome to SF! :D

[mexi_gabacho]

I think part of the problem is that "new" on2 dancers, who previously danced on1, still lead on1 while dancing on2...

This happens with alot of On1 men who transition over. I do my best to make certain that I'm leading things on the correct timing for an On2 dancer. What I usually do after class is go home and do the follower's steps, imagining what lead I would need IF _I_ were the follower (Training Instructor habit :) ).

So, I don't think that is it. After a long IM conversation with peach (I'm sure she is getting tired of encouraging me) :lol: I need to accept that private lessons will probably be the best way for me to iron out my On2 footwork and leading, enabling me to move on to Intermediate/Advanced class much faster.

Re: the statement above...
On a side note, I believe what sharon is talking about is that because of the way the footwork On2 works (we're talking ET On2), the timing on certain leads with vary a little. It's the simple rule of "you can't be pulling the girl to turn when she is still rocking back" and things like that. This is why I always tell my guys to learn the follower steps so that they better understand how/when to lead things.

Anyway, I'll continue working the On2 thing until I am comfortable with it. I want to be able to take On2 classes at the Miami Salsa Congress and be competent. That's my CURRENT goal.[/i]

[hopelessly_addicted]

Re: the statement above...
On a side note, I believe what sharon is talking about is that because of the way the footwork On2 works (we're talking ET On2), the timing on certain leads with vary a little. It's the simple rule of "you can't be pulling the girl to turn when she is still rocking back" and things like that. This is why I always tell my guys to learn the follower steps so that they better understand how/when to lead things.[/i]

Well, if the guy was simply pulling a follower on a wrong beat (ie while I'm rocking back), then I'd feel the lead is "off" or simply uncomfortable. This is distinguishable, IMO, from my inability to follow the native on2 leads while being able to follow the on2 leads who are still learning (to dance on2)... ... Actually, I feel more uncomfortable dancing with the native on2 dancers as a follower who learnt to dance first on1...

[dc]

For those who may not have seen this. Its originally from a New York Times article back in 2000. Amusing and revealing---http://www.mambofello.com/articles/battle_of_the_mambo.htm

[salcero2005]

For those who may not have seen this. Its originally from a New York Times article back in 2000. Amusing and revealing---http://www.mambofello.com/articles/battle_of_the_mambo.htm

That is an excellent article and hits at the crutz of the matter. It would be nice if dance schools actually taught that the music dictates the style in which you should dance. While in partner dancing, there are certain moves that everyone does I do get tired of seeing the same moves all the time. This kind of rigidity is the kind of thing that could potentially lead more people to want to do more freestyle dancing instead of partner dancing. :peace:

[peachexploration]

....After a long IM conversation with peach (I'm sure she is getting tired of encouraging me) :lol: I will never get tired Muchacho. You've encouraged me as well. :D

[borikenSalsero]

I have a question.... What makes a music more danceable on1 than on2?

The melody is built upon the clave, everything about the music is built upon the clave, then brought together by a rhythm that stresses the second beat of the music... That it isn't as easily seen doesn't mean that it isn't there, it just means that we've yet to delve into the foundation of the music...

I'm not saying that on2 is better, nor that everyone should dance on2, I only wish I could dance on1 and on3...

Just wondering what makes a song on1 vs on2 when they are both built using the same foundation?

Perhaps horn lines are stronger on the 1? maybe the start of the chorous? lead singer? But singing is still done to the clave...

what really in your opinion makes a song more danceable on1 than on2? I don't even really hear the 1 on a song, I hear the 2 piercing through music like a sword of a jealous husband through the heart of his love's thief...

My money goes to the mind, beliefs, what we think of things more so than the music... had it not the mind, then we would all think the same of each song, yet we don't...

[peachexploration]

....My money goes to the mind, beliefs, what we think of things more so than the music... had it not the mind, then we would all think the same of each song, yet we don't...

You're right as usual. For alot of beginning dancers, their first classes don't include musical training. It's usually done as an after thought or you will have to study on your own.

I have made two observations though. Now that I've had some on2 classes, I can actually find the "2" or clave in EVERY song but when I put on something like Micaela by Sonora Carruseles or Cuero Na Ma by Jose Manqual, Jr., dancing On2 doesn't "feel" right. I wish I knew what "that" was, but I don't. :( Could it be the style of Salsa? Maybe because it's Boogalu or Columbian in style. Hmm, don't know. But I know what you're getting at, Boriken. :)

Another question, I wonder if many of us learned strictly by percussion, if the result would be the same? If we only learned by the conga or clave, I wonder about that result....

[johnnyBG]

hi there,
On2 discussion is very popular as I see...
we've had one in Builgarian forum too.
On some songs I catch the bass and dance on it... the dance becomes very dynamic! Even one of the training rythms had very clear bass.

[borikenSalsero]

hi there,
On2 discussion is very popular as I see...
we've had one in Builgarian forum too.
On some songs I catch the bass and dance on it... the dance becomes very dynamic! Even one of the training rythms had very clear bass.

I actually enjoy dancing to the bass too, which If I'm not mistaken comes just after the four beat and the 6and, or just after the 8 beat and the 2and... It is nice and gives the music a kind of "elongated" feel... well, at least to me...

[peachexploration]

Any other comments on this one?

[EMOYENO]

I recently learned to dance on2, however I find it very difficult to dance on that beat, even though I find the beat it's my feet.

I'm just a beginner so I guess I need to work on it a lot. It's very very nice to go dancing and finding leaders who are actually good at it and they lead you right into the steps though.

But I do find it very frustrating to get my footwork to work!!!!

[peachexploration]

Hi EMOYENO. Don't worry. It will get easier as you progress. :) The attached thread is ET2 BUT I'm sure there are some things that will help in your transition:

On1 transitioning to ET2 Corner (http://www.salsaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=576&start=0)

[Salsamakossa]

Hi Boriken,

This is an interesting question. For me, at the moment, I go strictly by my ear and feel. And there are some songs that have a stronger on2 beat than others. yayboy, temedi, from africando for instance, or niche. Maybe 2 years on, some people have this figured out. lol.

I have a question.... What makes a music more danceable on1 than on2?

The melody is built upon the clave, everything about the music is built upon the clave, then brought together by a rhythm that stresses the second beat of the music... That it isn't as easily seen doesn't mean that it isn't there, it just means that we've yet to delve into the foundation of the music...

I'm not saying that on2 is better, nor that everyone should dance on2, I only wish I could dance on1 and on3...

Just wondering what makes a song on1 vs on2 when they are both built using the same foundation?

Perhaps horn lines are stronger on the 1? maybe the start of the chorous? lead singer? But singing is still done to the clave...

what really in your opinion makes a song more danceable on1 than on2? I don't even really hear the 1 on a song, I hear the 2 piercing through music like a sword of a jealous husband through the heart of his love's thief...

My money goes to the mind, beliefs, what we think of things more so than the music... had it not the mind, then we would all think the same of each song, yet we don't...

[KP-salsa]

For those who may not have seen this. Its originally from a New York Times article back in 2000. Amusing and revealing---http://www.mambofello.com/articles/battle_of_the_mambo.htm

Wow - that article is full of so many people who need a good slap. "They're off beat", "on1 dancers don't know how to dance", "on1 dancers who learn to dance on2 usually become converts", "on2 is insular and contrived", "dancing on2 is really on the African beat, more authentic".

There's also a misconception (usually by on2 dancers) that you pause on1 but don't on2 - whereas in reality, if danced properly, each form flows through the 4 and the 8, just in on2 your foot's in the air and on1 your foot's on the ground - if you stop in either style you're doing it wrong.

As for the music - I heartily believe that very little music dictates that you dance either on1 or on2. We hear what we're used to. If you dance on2 your ear picks out the 2 and the percussion, if you dance on1 you hear the melody and the 1 - both groups will listen to the same piece of music and say that the music tells them to dance their style: both are right. But also both are wrong because the music isn't saying either, it just is.

Part of the problem here is that too many teachers and classes have agendas and interests that lead them to put down alternative styles - perhaps out of fear of losing students in a competitive market - and these prejudices are taken on by their students and promulgated as "Facts".

[tj]

:applause: :notworthy:
Well said, KP!

[sweavo]

if you stop in either style you're doing it wrong.

*slap*

*blows, wild west style, across the top of his fish*

I think you wrote "it wrong" when you meant "a style I tend to avoid", an understandable typo :)

[tj]

Over on DF, Vin had a theory about the differences and similarities about the styles, including which beats the various styles tend to be lazy about. It was pretty good post (which got lost in the noise of everyone asking for the definition of the steps, lol).

[tj]

Here's Vin's post:

Glad you asked.

The point is they are all equally great for the music if you dance correctly. The point is we should be dancing to all 8 counts of the music.

When dancing on1 lazy dancers tend to ignore the 2-4-6-8.

When dancing ET2 lazy dancers tend to ignore the 3-4-7-8.

When dancing Power2 lazy dancers tend to ignore the 1-3-5-7.

If you dance any of these you shouldn't be ignoring any of the beats and if you dance to all 8 beats then the transitions between the different styles becomes less a matter of hearing the music differently and more a matter of doing different movements at different points in the music. Even the pause beats should not be ignored. Add a little shoulder roll or something on those counts, it will help your overall dancing.

[Swannie]

Vin's post is talking about *really* lazy dancers.

As I'm SURE you already know, ALL of the BEST salsa dancers don't just dance on1 or on2. You don't need me to TELL YOU that the BEST dancers use more the ONE beat every 8 to step on, hahah. No of course, you know what I mean, and my DVD really makes it EASY to do. Yes, I mean dancing on the half beats. Anyone can count to 8, but it takes a special amount of skill, which YOU can develop, to count BETWEEN the counts. You can pack 16, yes SIXTEEN steps into the space a really lazy dancer would fit 4, and a lazy dance would fit 6. That is FOUR TIMES the steps of a really lazy dancer! Nothing else screams out "I understand the percussion" than mastering the 1/2 beats! (For those who have mastered them, see my DVD about squeezing triplets into one beat, giving you a choice of 24 !!! beats to use). Start incorporating these techniques minutes after recieving my DVD, wowing the women, and getting the guys asking where you teach. (Are you a BORN teacher? Either way, my "1234,5678 is for losers - Teach winners the secrets of 1e&2e&3e&4e&5e&6e&7e&8e&" is garaunteed to make you $1000's)

So don't hesistate, order today and kick start your development!
(And keep coming back, our awesome new "Fast and F****** Furious Salsa Moves - Master 32 step salsa shines" is in post production!)

:lol:

End of joke... Don't know why I decided to use sales 101 type language and over stress it.

However I do believe that many don't realise that 123,567 basic step is a guide line, and as long as you keep time, then almost anything goes.