The future of partner dancing

[salsero]

Just a thought...

They say that the advent of the twist in the 60s was the beginning of the end for partner dancing as a mainstream pursuit in the US/UK.

Is the mainstream arrival of reggaeton with its solo dance style going to do the same for latin american music? And is it part of a general "dumbing down" in culture away from partner dances that require more study/practice than just getting on the dance floor and shaking your behind?

[peachexploration]

What's Reggaeton? :tongue: Just kidding. I don't think so. As long as there is a love for partner dancing, I doubt that any one music can remove another genre particularly one such as Salsa. Reggaeton, like Hip-Hop has it's own following and audience. So does Salsa..... :)

[borikenSalsero]

There are a number of variables to consider.

Here in the US it will definitely dwindle even further from mainstream once my generation of Latinos has kids.

As it is right now, I am 30 and you would not believe the amount of young Latinos (in their teens) who can not even merengue. Of course in America there is a constant "influx" of Latinos who in their home country still love partner dancing, hence will always attempt to live their lifestyle in a foreign country keeping a specialized section, alive.

Out of Latin countries, Puerto Rico's couple dancing is possibly in the most trouble. Of course there is still a relatively huge number of partner dancers, however, that huge amount is limited to people my age (30) and older. The teens who follow partner dancing are pretty much non-existent. Yes, we can still find them, but not as a mainstream...

Sadly, Puerto Rico has been Americanized, of which the mentality of "that is for old people" is one that truly rooted in the island. Where as in years past, before anglo take-over, it was, "Let me learn from the old guy". So, young people jumped in the band-wagon generated here in the US. Old musicians, old dance, old music, old people = they should retire.

Again, the question is one of mainstream... Looking at today, Salsa nor partner dance are by any means Mainstream in the US nor Puerto Rico. It is far from that.

It can change, but will the movement towards capitalistic need in Latino world Americanize it causing Latinos to gear towards the Anglo-way rather than the Latino-cultural-way? If so, partner dancing in Latin countries as mainstream is doomed.

Then again, it can be said that reggeton is a "partner dance". hehe

The entire Latin America has a problem with self identity and race, more so for Puerto Ricans. The history of the problem causes them to see Anglo-world as optimal, causing latinos to want to act and eventually become Americanos.

Even if a few disagree, it is a historical fact that mixed Latinos have always looked up to their Anglo counterpart. It can be suggested that it started once Cortez arrived at the shore of central-south America and the Indians greeted them as Gods.... On top of that, a capitalist world stresses that money means richness, wealth and superiority, which means that if the masses are followers they would not even see their thinking change from so******t to capitalist... look here in the US, who has the best services available and why? the issues is no longer the greater good for society but for money.

Reggeton is pretty much that, the Americanization of young Puerto Ricans looking for self identity through music. However, that self identity is truly distant from their Latino root and much more similar to Anglo-way... Reggeton, although displays young-Latino-inner-city-mentality, what it really shows is the unconscious assimilation of young Puerto Ricans to American...

Watch a hip-hop video or listen to a hip-hop song, and you've heard all that reggeaton is about...

By being american I mean a way of thinking... a way of thinking that stops being latino and becomes american... We would be hard press to find any native latin person who finds an american born latino to be truly latino... in blood they are, in looks they are, however, in mentaility they are not... which is why latinos born in the US find themselves as outcasts when visiting, even returning to the country they, themselves call home...

[sarita1011]

borikenSalsero, those are some good points you make. It reminds me of a conversation that I had with someone in one of my non-dance classes. She's Puerto Rican, born and raised in the U.S. She's also young -- 22 years -- and said that it annoyed her when she would go visit family on the island that most of her cousins were eager to adopt the "American" way (i.e., they wanted to speak English rather than Spanish).

As for partner dancing going the way of the Dodo, I don't know. I tend to agree with peachexploration; if there are people that love it, then it will be around. When I went to Cuba last spring and this past winter, I noticed young people partner dancing. There was a birthday party for my friend's brother, and no matter what music was playing (salsa or reggaeton), there was partner dancing.

[salcero2005]

Aren't both Spanish AND English official languages of Puerto Rico? I realize Spanish is the dominant language. I agree that PR is too Americanized, especially Isla Verde, which to me is almost like being in the Bronx, lol. Sadly, I prefer other Latin American countries over PR because of this.

Also, it is interesting that, unlike Reggae, I don't hear conscientious (i.e., Bob Marley) reggaeton? Did I miss something? I don't hear enough to really know.

I think partner dancing is here to stay, but this thing is cyclical. It seems like the meanstream is jumping on it with the recent TV shows and even movies. If it becomes too much of a cliché, it could implode the way the Hustle did.

[borikenSalsero]

Aren't both Spanish AND English official languages of Puerto Rico? I realize Spanish is the dominant language.

Nope, Spanish is the official language in PR. The united states did fight to have enlish alone become the official language but after a pilot period of forcing english to everyone in schools failed....

Yes, Isla Verde as well as El Area Metro of Puerto Rico is like being in the US. Hence, my strong dislike for visiting that side of the island where puertoricans have gone from "Puerto rican de pura sepa" to "puerto rican de puro hamburger" :shock:

[borikenSalsero]

I was just reading an atricle that was rather fasinating about reggeaton in the New York times. www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/fashion/sundaystyles/17reggaeton.html

One line stands out in my mind... Some young, and clearly lost in her own thinking, lady actually said this.

"This is the generation that is not trying to assimilate like their parents were," she continued. "They're trying to blend in by making the mainstream more like them."

She's actually forgotten that while her parents actually tried to blend in, they never achieved such. It wasn't until their offspring grew of age that American-Latinos blended to American mainstream culture. It truly means she isn't making mainstream more like her, but making herself more mainstream. Which is the point I alluded to of thinking like an American and not realizing her thinking has changed. If this same girl is to go to her parents home country, she will undoubtedly not fit in. Not because she isn't in blood and looks hispana, but because she thinks like an american.

The writer made a great point by pointing out that :

"This cross-cultural popularity has everything to do with the music's core audience: the growing demographic of young, American-born Latinos, nearly 20 percent of all Americans 34 and younger. They speak English, listen to hip-hop and are more connected in their attitudes than their parents and grandparents were. "

The underlying statement of "more connected in their attitudes" really has to do with assimilation to American culture and the ability to relate to it, which means young Latin-Americans connect with foreign sounds in a foreign country (USA) more than they do Latin sounds... Hence, throwing us back to a loss of Latin-self identity which is seen, obviously by the young girl's word, as Latinos bringing their culture to the forefront, by that, she simply means Spanish language... For nothing but the language we see in recreation speaks for a Latino but more so an urban American Latino...

[salcero2005]

Aren't both Spanish AND English official languages of Puerto Rico? I realize Spanish is the dominant language.

Nope, Spanish is the official language in PR. The united states did fight to have enlish alone become the official language but after a pilot period of forcing english to everyone in schools failed....

Yes, Isla Verde as well as El Area Metro of Puerto Rico is like being in the US. Hence, my strong dislike for visiting that side of the island where puertoricans have gone from "Puerto rican de pura sepa" to "puerto rican de puro hamburger" :shock:

Hmm .... thatz interesting because many websites list English and Spanish, for instance:

http://welcome.topuertorico.org/descrip.shtml

http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2001/vol5n20/DebateOffLang-en.shtml

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Puerto_Rico

http://www.puertorico.com/

[salseralon]

"Puerto rican de pura sepa" to "puerto rican de puro hamburger" :shock:

lol.

I dont think its the end of partner dancing, and as boriken pointed out isnt reggaeton also partner dancing, anyway i do like reggaeton, but still LOVE salsa, and many of the ppl i know agree with this. Dance goes in and out of fashion like most things, but partner dancing will never truly die.

[borikenSalsero]

Aren't both Spanish AND English official languages of Puerto Rico? I realize Spanish is the dominant language.

Nope, Spanish is the official language in PR. The united states did fight to have enlish alone become the official language but after a pilot period of forcing english to everyone in schools failed....

Yes, Isla Verde as well as El Area Metro of Puerto Rico is like being in the US. Hence, my strong dislike for visiting that side of the island where puertoricans have gone from "Puerto rican de pura sepa" to "puerto rican de puro hamburger" :shock:

Hmm .... thatz interesting because many websites list English and Spanish, for instance:

http://welcome.topuertorico.org/descrip.shtml

http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2001/vol5n20/DebateOffLang-en.shtml

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Puerto_Rico

http://www.puertorico.com/

Not only do those sites state so, but the gov't does as well. Just as the gov't lists puerto rico as having a 90% english and literacy rate. With college education being over 80%. Numbers and stats that are far from the truth, however done for the sake of making puerto rico look better than it is. English seen as dual "official" language is only done to aid tourism. So while the gov't to the outside world says, yes english is official, it tells the inside that only spanish is official...

Tell the world puerto rico's "official" language is english, even if only 10% of the poplation can speak it, with less than 5% who write and read it, we are then suddenly seen through different eyes... It is but a political game that only means something to the uninformed...

[HF]

Very interesting thread. borikenSalsero, I would like to translate some of your post to a local salsa forum if you are comfortable with it.

[salsero]

Dance goes in and out of fashion like most things, but partner dancing will never truly die.

Agreed. But for latinos, will it become, as it is for most people in US/Europe from the 60s onwards, a minority interest?

Even with all the interest in partner dancing generated by shows like Strictly Come Dancing & Strictly Dance Fever in the UK and Dancing With The Stars in the US, I can't see partner dances ever being as popular as they have been in the past (which is a shame, as they can be so much more fun than dancing solo!)

(And by partner dancing I meant dances like salsa, swing, tango, etc. danced in a hold where there's a leader & a follower :))

[DeeplyDippy]

Thought provoking stuff from you all.

I remember starting to partner dance 8 years ago, in my late 30's and thinking why had it taken so long. Why hadn't my parents (who met at a dance) kept going. Why did people give up this intimacy.

If it does fizzle out, like in the 60's, then it may take another 30 years for it to come around again. By which time, I'll be past caring :cry:

But following borikenSalsero's words, I'm now determined than ever to visit Puerto Rico, sooner rather than later.

[johnnyBG]

In this way of thoughts... I've met a couple from Belgium a months ago, when I was on my holiday in Turkey... They're married for 40 years and when there was a party in the hotel they didn't miss a dance!
There was a dance competition in the hotel and they took the first place - ware really sweet! (I was in the jury)

[borikenSalsero]

Very interesting thread. borikenSalsero, I would like to translate some of your post to a local salsa forum if you are comfortable with it.

By all means HF, you can translate it my posts...

[borikenSalsero]

Dance goes in and out of fashion like most things, but partner dancing will never truly die.

Agreed. But for latinos, will it become, as it is for most people in US/Europe from the 60s onwards, a minority interest?

Even with all the interest in partner dancing generated by shows like Strictly Come Dancing & Strictly Dance Fever in the UK and Dancing With The Stars in the US, I can't see partner dances ever being as popular as they have been in the past (which is a shame, as they can be so much more fun than dancing solo!)

(And by partner dancing I meant dances like salsa, swing, tango, etc. danced in a hold where there's a leader & a follower :))

I think the state of partner dancing in Puerto Rico is an indication of what Salsero means. Soon, globaliza... errrrr imperialism/capitalism will take hold of the world and do away such things that bring people together... The need for head-on movement with eyes closed will take root, and deem anything and everything done by the previous generation as passé, which must be done away to be replaced with new/better means of living....

Not only is it a fact here in the US, as it already is in Puerto Rico, but as soon as Castro passes away in Cuba, and if Americans are allowed to have their way as they did in Puerto Rico, then Cuba too will be a freestyle society in another 50 years. Their lifestyle will be a thing of the past... seen as the advancement of society.

Central and South American will be doomed as well if their identity doesn't allow them to see their own countries and fundamental beliefs just as important and ultimately "equivalent" to those of a capitalist/imperialist society... A society that stresses individuality, self glory and what the body can master on its own, has very little need for a communal action that thrives on the union of people as one.

Society must learn to nurture its rich culture/folklore despite...

[yola]

strange, coz it seems that salsa is booming business here! growing and growing!

[borikenSalsero]

borikenSalsero, those are some good points you make. It reminds me of a conversation that I had with someone in one of my non-dance classes. She's Puerto Rican, born and raised in the U.S. She's also young -- 22 years -- and said that it annoyed her when she would go visit family on the island that most of her cousins were eager to adopt the "American" way (i.e., they wanted to speak English rather than Spanish).

Yes, that is the case. Puerto Ricans, especially those in favor of statehood, call themselves Americanos, see Puerto Rican Corporations, lifestyle, and thinking as lesser in quality.

That reminds me of a funny story, my dad loves to debate, so one day he is debating about Puerto Rico with one of his friends... Well, his friend exclaimed that he wasn’t Puerto Rican but an American. My father then looked at him and said: “Well, I am sorry, but since you are American, and I Puerto Rican, you speak English and I Spanish. That means I don’t understand a thing you are saying!” My dad left his friend there arguing to himself. Lol

What is worst about identity crisis is that when I go to Puerto Rico and people find out I reside in the US, I am instantly placed in a pedestal. I am introduced everywhere I go as, so and so who lives in the United States. It isn’t as much what is said, but how it is said. It makes me want to cry that we (Puerto Ricans) desire so little to be who we are (Jibaros)

[borikenSalsero]

strange, coz it seems that salsa is booming business here! growing and growing!

Notice that there is a huge wave riding anything latino in a large part of the Non-Latin world, which means people from those areas will follow the trend of society. With the way media is today it takes very little time for such a wave to really buckle down... Capitlize, capitalize... now, now before its gone....

I can only hope that it takes root and keeps partner dancing alive rather than a nice little time during the dawn of the 21st century, which dies as soon as society directs people down another venue...

[HF]

strange, coz it seems that salsa is booming business here! growing and growing!

Notice that there is a huge wave riding anything latino in a large part of the Non-Latin world, which means people from those areas will follow the trend of society.

I partly agree but not entirely. When I entered the salsa world I was amazed by the fact that it is a partner dance and men ask women ... like it has been in europe some hundred years ago when the Viennese Waltz was invented and was a living scene. I think it is much more than a re-orientation to old values or a trend. There is some truth in it that makes partner dance an everlasting classic.

[salseralon]

borikenSalsero, those are some good points you make. It reminds me of a conversation that I had with someone in one of my non-dance classes. She's Puerto Rican, born and raised in the U.S. She's also young -- 22 years -- and said that it annoyed her when she would go visit family on the island that most of her cousins were eager to adopt the "American" way (i.e., they wanted to speak English rather than Spanish).

Yes, that is the case. Puerto Ricans, especially those in favor of statehood, call themselves Americanos, see Puerto Rican Corporations, lifestyle, and thinking as lesser in quality.

That reminds me of a funny story, my dad loves to debate, so one day he is debating about Puerto Rico with one of his friends... Well, his friend exclaimed that he wasn’t Puerto Rican but an American. My father then looked at him and said: “Well, I am sorry, but since you are American, and I Puerto Rican, you speak English and I Spanish. That means I don’t understand a thing you are saying!” My dad left his friend there arguing to himself. Lol

What is worst about identity crisis is that when I go to Puerto Rico and people find out I reside in the US, I am instantly placed in a pedestal. I am introduced everywhere I go as, so and so who lives in the United States. It isn’t as much what is said, but how it is said. It makes me want to cry that we (Puerto Ricans) desire so little to be who we are (Jibaros)

This is really interesting, as living in the u.k the few ricans i know, are so patriotic to puerto rico, and are annoyed with their cousins and friends back in p.r who all try to be so "american" (in thier words). And whenever they go back they experience this kind of placing on a pedestal as boriken says, which they find very uncomfortable.

P.S - i really dont know why my quote thing keeps doing that, i apologise cos its hard to read, ill just stop quoting lol

[borikenSalsero]

This is really interesting, as living in the u.k the few ricans i know, are so patriotic to puerto rico, and are annoyed with their cousins and friends back in p.r who all try to be so "american" (in thier words). And whenever they go back they experience this kind of placing on a pedestal as boriken says, which they find very uncomfortable.

P.S - i really dont know why my quote thing keeps doing that, i apologise cos its hard to read, ill just stop quoting lol

I've had people ask me why ricans out of the island are so patriotic, so much so that it is annoying those in the island.

I have a theory. Must of us leave PR as young kinds, by the time we grow up and away from the island, we truly begin to question where we live and who we are. We begin to miss the island, our culture, our home, our souls, so much that it forces us to look at ourselves and reject anything that distance us from that we truly are; Puerto Rican. We beceom educated about our very history and a sence of Pride of who we are is born. A pride that does away with the identity crisis found in the mianstream-public in island.

For those who are born outside of the island, to them, it happens just like Jimmy Bosch's (Crisis De Identidad) song says. They are born being something they are not, then confusion overtakes their life, but when the day comes when confusion ends and a new sence of identity backed by pride is born.

Now, what I find the wildest thing is that we have to be outside the island to want to be Puerto Ricans, while mainstream Puerto Rico pushes to be something else. :?

[salseralon]

it really is a curious topic...

however no matter puerto rico is a beautiful country

[sarita1011]

What is worst about identity crisis is that when I go to Puerto Rico and people find out I reside in the US, I am instantly placed in a pedestal. I am introduced everywhere I go as, so and so who lives in the United States. It isn’t as much what is said, but how it is said. It makes me want to cry that we (Puerto Ricans) desire so little to be who we are (Jibaros)

But this seems to be the case in a lot of other (non-Latino) cultures. My family is from West Africa -- Liberia, Nigeria, and Sierra Leone -- and on more than one occasion I've been told that if I ever get the chance to go to Liberia, more than likely I'd be put on a pedestal. All due to the fact that I was born and raised in the U.S. and have an "American" accent.

Anyway, I still say that partner dancing won't really go away. There's too much fun to be had! I don't know if people who partner dacne will ever want that to die.

[MacMoto]

Sorry this is off topic but,
P.S - i really dont know why my quote thing keeps doing that, i apologise cos its hard to read, ill just stop quoting lol
You have probably turned BBCode off. Go to your profile (click "Profile" from the menu near the top of the page) and choose "Yes" for "Always allow BBCode". ;)

Back to scheduled programming... ;)

[salseralon]

Thanks for that MacMoto, peach changed it for me :)

[Jones, Nikka]

What an interesting thread!

In my opinion, and in the particular case of Canada, it is the non-latin people who will carry the salsa traditions to the next generations. This is because, just like latinos admire the North American culture, it is the people from the Canada who are at the present moment most excited about discovering the Latino culture.

At least here in Canada the number of Latinos is not exactly negligeable, but they are not a very influential minority (yet). But you would not be able to tell by the proliferation of salsa dance schools and clubs. It is disproportionate to the actual number of latino immmigrants. We are in the middle of a latino culture craze and it is not just salsa, is vacationing in the Caribbean, it is about latin food, it is about people learning spanish and other aspects of the latino culture.

In the salsa clubs, most of the best dancers are not even latinos. And we have teachers of all kind of ethnic origins: Polish, Greek, Sweedish, Haitian, Trinidadian, Salvadorian, British, Mexican, Chileans, Africans and of course, Canadian.

So, there is no fear that the latino society will become assimilated. If anything, it is the canadian society that is being assimilated. Therefore the future of salsa is being bred across all ethnic lines.

And so it is, I believe, with all partnership dancing. It will survive, diluted, recycled or re-invented, but it will never disappear.
Salsa, in particular, being an amalgam of different cultures and traditions, is already better equiped than most dances to evolve and thrive. Sure, some purist may not like the direction, or directions it may take but its evolution is, by its very nature, inevitable.

[Karlosism]

OK cool...maybe a perspective from someone "young" might be helpful...I am from San Diego/ LA area...I am 23, mex-amer or "chicano" --> term I dislike...anyways... I have been to Puerto Rico several time for work, I've had a PR(from the island) girlfirend and I you know what I fell in love with the culture..its a beautiful island and more so beautiful people...inside and out...Aroz con Candules --> thats FREAKIN GOOOD...we even eat it in our "Mexican" home all the time..and the recipe is spreading like fire.

Anyways...yea, PR peeps are very patriotic! Which is cool...i love that about them...As far as the future of Salsa.. yea sometimes I am the only person under 30 at clubs but I stoped going to salsa clubs to meet women a looong time ago...I do it now cus I go crazy if I don't..lol...
The thing is about salsa..because it not easy to learn but looks easy to do it will always attract a certain kind of person..From a guys persective it is AWSOME if you know how to do it...most girls jump at the oppurtunity to learn..why? dancing, period, makes them feel good and sexy...

Its not so much the lack of interest in Salsa but a lack of patience- people quit or prefer to go to a younger crowd scene....

As far as Reggeaton...here in LA its fading away...the 'beat' gets old fast and honestly, from what I've heard from girls, its just an oppurtunity for guys " to get tooo close." which they hate....

In ASia, Canada, and certain US cities (memphis, San Diego, Orlando, SLK in Utah) salsa is spreading like crazy maybe after more TV exposure and more FRIENDLY EXPERIENCED DANCERs the "younger" crowd might come back...

[SDsalsaguy]

**Hijack Alert**

Heya Karlosism, what clubs do you frequent in San Diego?

[Karlosism]

**Hijack Alert**

Heya Karlosism, what clubs do you frequent in San Diego?

Well...lol...I used to go to Cafe Sevilla in Riverside...and that place is rockin'..you get sum pretty famous "salsa" faces popping in there regularly... what i like about that place is...people are friendly and you always have a new wave of eager and interested people comming in... a good college crowd frequents that place too which is very cool..and they have hip hop upstairs in the patio which is also cool too....anyways..now that I'm here in SD i've been going to the La Jolla marriot, Cafe Sevilla in downtown SD and i'm about to check out Hot Monkey Love Cafe...I'm trying to recruit some of the Ballroom girls from school into salsa...lol...
How about you?