choreagraphed moves

So I've now attended three workshops, 1 chacha and 2 on2, where the moves taught were choreagraphed, which means they were not leadable. This was proven later in discussion and practice with my instructor and several advanced follows. Why do some instructors at congresses do this? I admit that the on2 patterns were doable with effort but the chacha - absolutely not. why why why......

Just had to put this out there

jlon2 said:

So I've now attended three workshops, 1 chacha and 2 on2, where the moves taught were choreagraphed, which means they were not leadable. This was proven later in discussion and practice with my instructor and several advanced follows. Why do some instructors at congresses do this? I admit that the on2 patterns were doable with effort but the chacha - absolutely not. why why why......

Just had to put this out there

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Hahaha... this makes me feel alot better so it wasnt just me

That mirrors my experience with some cha cha workshops, too, and is one of the reasons I ended up just translating my salsa moves.

I hardly take classes at all these days. And I use my salsa moves in chacha, bachata and merengue. And as validation, I saw some of those moves in an advanced bachata dvd..Not bad... lol.

tj said:

That mirrors my experience with some cha cha workshops, too, and is one of the reasons I ended up just translating my salsa moves.

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jlon2 said:

So I've now attended three workshops, 1 chacha and 2 on2, where the moves taught were choreagraphed, which means they were not leadable. This was proven later in discussion and practice with my instructor and several advanced follows. Why do some instructors at congresses do this? I admit that the on2 patterns were doable with effort but the chacha - absolutely not. why why why......

Just had to put this out there

Click to expand...

This happens because some of the so-called instructors at congresses are not really instructors at all. They juat happen to be good performers but know very little about how the dancing actually works, and since they are hired because they look good on stage, they go and teach exactly what they do on stage: choreography.
This goes to prove that being a good dancer is not the same as being a good teacher. A lot of people can dance, but they do not know how to dance.

Jones said:

This happens because some of the so-called instructors at congresses are not really instructors at all. They juat happen to be good performers but know very little about how the dancing actually works, and since they are hired because they look good on stage, they go and teach exactly what they do on stage: choreography.
This goes to prove that being a good dancer is not the same as being a good teacher. A lot of people can dance, but they do not know how to dance.

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That's scary. Guess I'm still too sheltered to have experienced this yet. Would it be rude for one of the students to ask, "How would you lead this when social-dancing?" I wonder how one of these teachers would react.

This type of complaint surfaces with too much regularity.

First-- lets address the class " structure ". If you are in a beginners class , then the foundation material that should be taught, is universal .
That is to say, a crossover break ( new yorker ) cbl, etc ,etc. should be in all beginners vocabulary.
The sequence in which they are given , is to ensure, that during a class, eveyone is on the same " page " .

Heres the underlying problem--- most teachers, are not eqipped with sufficient background to go into the options that may occur, when in a social situation. And-- even if they do- fail to give the info. needed .

Cha. , is the dance that is usually never fully explained.

It should ALWAYS be prefaced by demonstrating the 3 various styles that co exist-- American, International and Guajira ( street style ) -- all may be danced to current music . This is always my first mission ,when introducing any dance , that has a counterpart ,

Even the highly qualif. teachers in the UK. have little or no knowledge, beyond what they teach in syllabus work . In addition, they are not usually aware of the relationship Cha,has
to other dances in the genre .



Whats really frightening ? -- these people are teaching at congresses !!!!

SnowDancer said:

...Would it be rude for one of the students to ask, "How would you lead this when social-dancing?" I wonder how one of these teachers would react.

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No, not rude at all. Real teachers love that kind of questions.

Jones said:

SnowDancer said:

...Would it be rude for one of the students to ask, "How would you lead this when social-dancing?" I wonder how one of these teachers would react.

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No, not rude at all. Real teachers love that kind of questions.

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That's exactly the question you should ask! If the class is based on choreography then it should be billed as such (and some teachers, such as Orville, do declare in advance when that's the kind of class).

On the other hand, when well into learning salsa, I used to think that this teacher or that teacher's material relied on choreography and 'wasn't leadable.' Then a year or two further on, I found I could in fact lead those moves. Both lead and follow acquire skills bit by bit, and it may be that a student hasn't yet got the building blocks for moves that are technically a couple of rungs higher up the ladder.

But I still think some material relies on choreography. And I know that often when routines are taught in class, not many teachers do break things down into the mechanics (and not all of them can) and so yes, the routine in class relies on choreography and demonstration rather than fundamental instruction.

For the record the chacha consisted of a CBL then by some divine intervention you're supposed to get the follow to step with you only on the even beats until they turn to face you on 8 and come back to basic. Impossible! unless it's taught beforehand..........but I must say it was nice.

You completely lost me ?-- what do you mean-- only on the EVEN beats ?

specifically these are your steps by numbers

CBL on 8 and 1, 2, 4, 6, 8 (she steps through in the same direction along all of these steps until you turn her to face you on 8 ) pause 2, 3, 4 and 5, 6, 7...............I know that may or may not help. It does look nice but again completely unleadable.

so again it's 8 and 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, pause 2, 3, 4 and 5, 6, 7

mind boggling isn't it.....hehe

Where are your syncopations ??????

you mean the chachacha steps........8 and 1.......

I have had the experience where unleadable moves suddenly appear in my repertoire one or two years after I "learned" them.

Variations in timing of steps are leadable. IF you've got the skill to get your follower to mirror you. It may take a couple of tries, don't expect miracles of mind-reading. ha.

Stepping on even beats can be done by cross steps and that's pretty common in Salsa in open hold. If in closed hold you've got more control of the followers body and this can help.

Hard to visualise HOW the chacha choreography was interpreted though with just timing without a clip or more descriptions.

exactly like that Azzey.....

leads left hand to follow's right hand she cross steps on the even beats 2 4 6 turns around on 8..........so you have to slow her down on 1 so she can start cross stepping on the even beats........like I said very nice just getting her to interpret that is very difficult unless there's a magic trick to it........I'd love to lead this move........I'd provide the video but I just don't want to put the instructor down as I like him alot

Although theoretically most salsa and cha-cha moves are interchangeable between the dances, I think some are more natural in one rather than the other because of the difference in tempo.

On the subject of moves that are not leadable, it is frustrating to be in a class where this is the case. Salsa, and Cha-Cha when danced in a Salsa environment, is fundamentally about leading and following. It is stating the obvious that non-leadable moves have no practical value.

An hour spent in a class where the moves are not leadable is 60 minutes wasted IMO.

jlon2 said:

exactly like that Azzey.....

leads left hand to follow's right hand she cross steps on the even beats 2 4 6 turns around on 8..........so you have to slow her down on 1 so she can start cross stepping on the even beats........like I said very nice just getting her to interpret that is very difficult unless there's a magic trick to it........I'd love to lead this move........I'd provide the video but I just don't want to put the instructor down as I like him alot

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Well if I wanted my follower to do that I'd lead it with the hand movement, essentially marking the odd beats by moving the hand side to side in an arc.

Initally you'd probably just get her twisting to that kind of lead, unless you gave further indication of what was expected.. e.g. by doing the cross steps yourself as you walk backwards, then she has the option to mirror you. Once she's got it you can stop doing the steps yourself and it looks like magic to another leader. hehe.

You might try leading the moves with both hands initially as twists are easier to indicate when you have both side of her body moving (just like a t-stance in salsa except you keep moving backwards). If the follower is very good though and your lead impecable she should get the idea from one hand.

Now regarding slowing her stepping just before you start the cross steps some pressure on the hand in the opposite direction might help to get her to stop or slow just before you start leading the cross steps.

Leading is a fine art and getting the sensitivity, body control, timing etc to lead complex moves with relatively inexperienced followers (or followers who have not experienced a particular lead before) is an art unto itself.

Don't expect to get the knack on the 2nd, 10th or even 20th try. Just keep plugging away.

That said if the teacher doesn't explain the lead, if there even is one, how are you ever expected to get it?

Most performers at Congresses really do not know how to teach. They are more or less self taught. It is true, many of them teach choreography and even if the material is leadable, they do not know how to break down the lead only the material. Being taught in a University by trained professors is not the same as your Dad teaching you even if he is successful in the subject at hand.