Salsa leaders - your golden rules [Archive]

MacMoto

07-14-2005, 05:12 AM

Having read HF's "Salsa followers - your golden rules (http://www.salsaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=556)" thread, I thought we could have a sister thread for secrets and tips to becoming a dream leader. ;)

I'll start with a few:

- Get your timing rock solid.

- Use the minimum force required to lead your partner. The amount of force needed/prefered is different from one follower to another, so learn to adjust. I've noticed that guys who dance with lots of beginners often become quite a rough lead :(. This may help you get beginners to follow your moves and they probably love you for it, but it can be very uncomfortable for followers who do not need a strong lead.

- Don't lead turns too early. In on1 cross-body style, the 5 is the beat where the follower steps forward. She starts turning on the 6. Don't force her to turn on the 5 as it makes her lose balance.
* In the case of multiple (double or more) turns, turning does start earlier, but your lead must make it clear that it's going to be a multiple so she has time to prep.

Any more tips? Comments? :)

DeeplyDippy

07-14-2005, 05:17 AM

When leading a spin ensure your hand circles the lady's head, no wider.

When leading a double spin, ensure you hand is up at head height at 4 - 4.5.

For a triple, ensure your lead is ready on 3.

07-14-2005, 05:41 AM

Some random thoughts:

- Practise your basics by yourself in front of a mirror.

- Lead multiple spins by leading a preparation step. A prep is no must with single turns but a nice option.

- Never (!) use your thumbs to press the ladies hands.

- Don't blame the follow if something does not work - it is your job to lead better.

- If something is messed up then smile and try again ... but don't do a false smile like "in case anybody watched this I am acting as being on stage and the show must go on" ... there is a difference people will notice.

- Never straighten your leading arm fully when dancing socially ... too dangerous for the follower.

- Also practise patterns alone with an imaginary follow. If you can imagine a move in detail your body can dance it (almost).

Claire_Brummell

07-14-2005, 07:38 AM

(Before I post this I would like to point out that I lead as well as follow, so this is not coming from someone who does not understand the plight of the leader - I've been on both sides!)

- Adjust your lead to the height of your follower - your arm will need to be at different heights for different women.

- Always take the lead for the level of dancing from the follower - don't try and 'force' her to dance your level

- When you are dancing you should always be thinking at least 4 counts ahead - so that you have a smooth transition from one move to the next - you need to be ready so the signal comes BEFORE you actually expect her to do it you can expect her to turn on the 5 if you haven't prepared her for it (ie if you hand only starts to raise on the 5, for example).

- Smile at your partner (this goes for girls too!) - it's supposed to be fun!! :D

NEVER

- Force a lead - if she's not doing what you expect her to, do not try and force her into place - you'll hurt you, her or both of you.
- Wrench a follower to make up timing - if it takes an extra 4 or 8 beats so be it
- Hold her hand when spinning - you should keep contact with whatever hand position you're spinning with and it will find it's natural position again - you will not lose her, hanging on to her is likely to break her fingers! (To go super girly for a mo, one guy ripped my nail half off by doing this - very girly, but very painful)
- Look disapprovingly if she did it wrong - chances are you led either at too high a level or the lead was not clear enough.

So many that I could list - none of which I can remember now - but probably will contribute more when they come to me!!

borikenSalsero

07-14-2005, 10:33 AM

I can really never add anything technical to this sort of question... I'm wondering if it is because I can't dance. :D

Anyways... Here are things I keep in mind when I'm dancing in attempts to make the dance as smooth and pleseant for the lady as I can.

- Relax the body and mind then embrace with your soul.
- Mold palms to the contour of the lady's body part you are about to touch.
- Before touching her for a lead, think of touching a sleeping baby and at the same time attempting not to wake him/her up.
- The energy to create that lead starts at the core, think of a rush of energy coming from the core and then gently transfering at the point of the lead into her, causing her to react to the subtlest of touch.
- Look into her eyes just before that lead creating a sense that all your intentions of making her yours will come together when the lead gets there.
- breath profoundly when there is a deep eye connection.
- If not looking into her eyes at time of lead, then make sure you look into her eyes when she is finished and embrace her with your eyes and most caring touch you can.
- Elongate the touch of hands.
- Breath using the stomach.

and on and on and on...

peachexploration

07-14-2005, 01:51 PM

I can really never add anything technical to this sort of question... I'm wondering if it is because I can't dance. :D.... :shock: :? :nope: Don't believe Boriken fellow Salser@s. Boriken is a very nice dancer. :)

What I see alot in leads is little or no upper body movement. Don't be afraid to use your whole body to dance. Not just your legs and arms just to execute moves. Styling and "sensual" movement is not just for follows.

07-15-2005, 03:50 AM

Mold palms to the contour of the lady's body part you are about to touch.

Hmm ... up to now I touch her at the hand, the shoulder and the hip. Anything I have missed?

Some more

- If she is looking very seriously and busy because of dancing very concentrated make her laugh by fooling around.
- Don't overuse it but throw in a double or triple spin now and then - some ladies are waiting for it.
- If you shine then remember that shining does not mean that everybody is dancing for himself. You are still dancing for your partner, maybe even more than before.

Claire_Brummell

07-15-2005, 06:22 AM

Just so you know HF (so as not to cause offence) I've restarted threads of this nature over at DF because I personally think that this is a great idea and that you were right in trying to share your knowledge and gain the knowledge of others. If you would like to go and post your tips there I'm sure they would be appreciated - if not I totally understand :)

JazzHands

07-17-2005, 07:33 AM

Lots of Tic-Tacs, good deodorant and short clean finger-nails.

Poor personal hygiene can be the ruin of even the most proficient of leaders.

peachexploration

07-20-2005, 04:00 PM

Good stuff here, Salser@s. Anyone else?

Nickie p

07-21-2005, 03:55 AM

as a fairly new salsera - from personal experience

if you lead me please don't step on my feet or yank me accross the floor on a cross body to keep up with you. Remember my steps may be smaller than yours.

if you don't want me to predict a turn when your hand is raised and intend to stop me and say "I didn't lead you there yet" I thought your raised hand was the cue - if it wasn't you need to cue a tad earlier or not let go of my other hand! Be clearer, if it was the move you wanted don't just stop me to say i didn't go on your cue - share it as a little "aside" with me afterwards please

don't be too rough but don't expect me to be psychic. If you are throwing in multiple turns be careful where you're going - you can easily pull me off balance

don't put endless (and I mean endless) lists of spins together - I am not a spinning top it makes me ill

if we land out of time don't automatically blame me it is possible your timing is out too

Just realised how moany that sounds but these are the few things that have bugged me dancing after class with various leads.

Claire_Brummell

07-21-2005, 04:03 AM

LOL Nicki - I hear you girl - I've been there myself.

What you have to remember (and the leads do too) is that 90% of the time if something goes wrong it is the lead's fault, they've not been clear enough in some way...so if they blame you for it - just remember this! :D

DeeplyDippy

07-21-2005, 04:50 AM

I think you're being way harsh by suggesting we're responsible for 90% of any errors :D

I like SuperMario's version - if it goes wrong below the waist, then it's the followers fault - above the waist, it's the leaders.

Strangely, it always goes wrong below the waist for me .... :lol:

Claire_Brummell

07-21-2005, 04:56 AM

Actually in my experience I'm actually being kind - most teachers that I've met / come across say that if it goes wrong at all then it's the lead's fault, whereas I don't agree - I'd say it's about 90%, the reason for this is that if it goes wrong because he's leading to far above the level of the follower, that's still his mistake, if he's not clear enough in his lead for the level of the follower, again that's his mistake. If she's ignored / not been paying attention to the lead then that's hers...but often the reason for missing a lead is because the lead hasn't given enough warning or been obvious enough.

Thing about Mario's version is that it depends what he means by 'below the waist' if he means footwork then it could easily be because the lead hasn't been clear enough on the move to ensure that she has time / space / warning to get the footwork right... :D

So I was actually cutting you some slack compared to most of the teachers that have commented on this ;) :lol:

07-21-2005, 06:58 AM

LOL Nicki - I hear you girl - I've been there myself.

Me too (leading). Working on it. ;)

MacMoto

07-21-2005, 07:31 AM

Thing about Mario's version is that it depends what he means by 'below the waist' if he means footwork then it could easily be because the lead hasn't been clear enough on the move to ensure that she has time / space / warning to get the footwork right... :D
... or because the timing of his lead is wrong and the follower is forced to take an extra step, step early, etc., to stay on her feet.

I agree that the leader is not *always* at fault -- that's why we have the other thread for followers! -- but after all it is the leader who gets to decide what move to do when, where and with which partner, and the power comes with certain responsibility -- like making sure (as sure as can be) it can be pulled off with the partner you are dancing with.

Claire_Brummell

07-23-2005, 05:20 AM

Exactly! :D

Pierre

06-27-2006, 12:03 PM

Sorry, to go against the grain here, but as a leader I believe that it is the leader's fault if anything goes wrong. Here are my reasons why:-

When dancing with a new partner, you need to assess their level, style connection, tension and 'flavour' - this should be done early on in the song. As the song progresses, you can increase the level until you find a point where the follow is challenged, but comfortable.

If you are dancing with an exceptionally 'bad' follow then drop the level right down to basics and increase the complexity of your own dancing or body movement.

This responsibility on the part of the leader applies not only to their partner, but to the use of the available floor space and to the people dancing around them.

The follow's responsibility is to 'prove' to their partner that they are ready, willing and able to be taken to the next level - this is demonstrated by their following skills. This also means, however, that the follower is responisble for the complexity of the dance - if they are bored, then it's because they are not following properly therefore the leader is not leading more complex moves.

AndrewD

06-27-2006, 12:46 PM

Sorry, to go against the grain here, but as a leader I believe that it is the leader's fault if anything goes wrong

I agree up to a point, but recently I've encountered a few ladies taking level 3 classes when they simply aren't ready.

They're fine in class, when the teacher is counting steps and calling the moves of a routine, but get them on the dance-floor and it all goes wrong.

If a lady 'bolts' on the 4 of a CBL or can't recover her footwork after a CW turn, but thinks she's good enough to take intermediate classes, well then I let her do her own thing and hope the song is a short one. I don't want a battle and won't impose a lead on such people.
I like leading light - it works fine with most beginners and I'm willing to strengthen it if need be, but false intermediates aren't worth the trouble.

peachexploration

06-27-2006, 01:33 PM

Sorry, to go against the grain here, but as a leader I believe that it is the leader's fault if anything goes wrong

I agree up to a point, but recently I've encountered a few ladies taking level 3 classes when they simply aren't ready.

They're fine in class, when the teacher is counting steps and calling the moves of a routine, but get them on the dance-floor and it all goes wrong.......I see what you're saying AndrewD. But I also thinks it's partly the instructor's fault. Especially when they're doing as what you're saying: 'Counting steps and calling moves of a routine...'

I really wish instructors would use the cause and effect method rather than just teaching the moves. More like 'when you feel pressure here, it indicates direction or pressure to go there', etc....

I think that would help other problems such as backleading. ;)

vin

06-27-2006, 02:11 PM

Fault, I hate using the term fault when dancing, maybe miscommunication, but really it's like kissing, or in the x-rated version sex. There is no such thing as screwing up, granted you may be doing something someone doesn't like, but I would hardly say that blame should be given.

My number one rule for Leaders(and Followers incidently) is to be aware of who you are dancing with. If you are dancing with a follower who can't follow a cross-body lead the way you know how to lead it then adjust your lead to what she can do.

If you are dancing with a follow who adds a spin extra onto the spins that you give then either stop her or spin her another time.

In any situation always remember that "It's just dancing"

AndrewD

06-28-2006, 07:28 AM

I see what you're saying AndrewD. But I also thinks it's partly the instructor's fault. Especially when they're doing as what you're saying: 'Counting steps and calling moves of a routine...'

I really wish instructors would use the cause and effect method rather than just teaching the moves. More like 'when you feel pressure here, it indicates direction or pressure to go there', etc....

I think that would help other problems such as backleading. ;)

Looking back – I see that my post read as mean and nasty (think I was in a bad mood).

I guess I was trying to say is that things like this put guys in a horrible situation – you’re dancing with someone who by virtue of the class they are taking should be able to do (as a minimum) an inside turn and outside turn and a CBL, but because of their footwork can’t.

What do I do?
Go right back to basics which they might see as an insult?
Muddle through an off-time and ugly dance?
Up the strength of my lead and force them through a dance that is ugly and still mostly off rhythm?
Start telling them their footwork is wrong, counting steps, ‘instructing’ on the dance floor?

So far I’ve muddled through, apologised and taken responsibility for the bad dance (and made a mental note not to ask them again.)

I haven't been exposed to many instructors but thanks to the forum I’ve read about the ‘pattern of the week syndrome’ that permeates the salsa teacher world. I guess this is a commercial reality, your average Joe doesn’t want to spend weeks on technique – they want ‘cool’ moves – if the teacher spent weeks of cold hard technique/theory the casual dancers (who make up most of the revenue and probably drink more booze) will leave. Even a salsanut like me got slightly frustrated when a month ago my teacher said ‘this week, the lesson will solely deal with travelling steps’ – some people left and took a more difficult class.

Pierre

06-28-2006, 09:15 AM

AndrewD

06-28-2006, 10:28 AM

DeeplyDippy

06-28-2006, 01:01 PM

As a leader, you always have to dance to your partner's actual level as opposed to the level she thinks she's at. If she doesn't appreciate that then that's not your problem.

Thanks for the advice :)

I didn't say it earlier but I couldn't agree with Pierre more - your original post in this thread was one of the most sensible I've read.

All of the points raised I try to keep to BUT I'm not perfect and sometimes the "bored" face comes on.

Pierre

06-29-2006, 04:11 AM

salsapassion

07-02-2006, 05:37 AM

I really wish instructors would use the cause and effect method rather than just teaching the moves. More like 'when you feel pressure here, it indicates direction or pressure to go there', etc....

I think that would help other problems such as backleading. ;)

We do teach exactly that at Salsapassion in Sydney: The correct leading/following technique, no sequences, students see their real skills (or lack of) immediately(!) while practicing - not only after the class. :D

This fast feedback loop ensures maximum learning speed after a somewhat slower start (patterns "feel" easier for most while leading/following can take a little while). 8)

Having not only 10+ years of Salsa experience but also a good or strong Argentine Tango background - like all our instructors -does help.
[Argentine Tango is pure improvisation via 100% leading and following as there is no basic step. ;)]

-klaus

peachexploration

07-02-2006, 11:39 AM

Fantastic, Salsapassion! If I were near your classes, I'd sign up in a heartbeat. To me, they way you teach is the most effective. Not only does it produce a good dancer but it gives the dancer "foundation". Once the sturdy foundation is established, you build anything upon it and all will be well. :D

irMaxSALSA

07-02-2006, 06:05 PM

onone32

01-15-2007, 04:54 PM

I would say that most of the time people at salsa venues are generally friendly but what I can't stand (!) is when may say 'it would be good if you could relax'. I know that I am relaxed, and this usually comes from guys who think they are better than they are and perhaps don't lead as well as they think, and when all doesn't flow they wonder why the woman isn't smiling (also some from guys who think you should be writhing up against them). Just for men out there who say this--it often isn't the case that the lady isn't relaxed, we also have to concentrate, especially if we are not dancing with very experienced leaders.

irishgirl

01-15-2007, 08:10 PM

I didn't bother reading this whole thread but I wish to submit my golden rule.

Ahem... Ahem...

Any ounce of disrespect or eyes rolling and she shall receive the "Mind Eraser" open shine.

:shock:Twilight Zone Theme Music:shock:

Mind Eraser :lol: :lol: I think that's a beautiful punishment !!

Just on the whose fault is it bit.....
I think it is mostly the leads fault but defintely the followers aswell if we start to backlead/ auto pilot/assume what the leader wants us to do.

That said...there is a guy on the scene here who is quite possibily the clearest lead i've ever had the pleasure of dancing with so far. First time we danced, he definitely does asses your level and always dances to your level - but at the same time, because he is the clearest lead - he can make you do stuff you didn't realise you could do and it doesn't feel scary or rushed or anything. It took me so long to work up the courage to ask him and when I did i was shocked and stunned by his clarity.

So, my point being, that if you are that good a lead, its your fault if the follower messes up, for the rest of us mere mortals, I think we should share the "blame" around a little!

lolita

01-16-2007, 12:39 AM

Now that i can lead....

IF SHE'S NOT FOLLOWING PROPERLY BECAUSE SHES TOO BUSY STYLING......punish her !

Swannie

01-16-2007, 05:02 AM

Now that i can lead....

IF SHE'S NOT FOLLOWING PROPERLY BECAUSE SHES TOO BUSY STYLING......punish her !

Do unto others as you would have done to you :twisted: :buttkick:

sweavo

01-16-2007, 05:18 AM

"It's always the leader's fault" is to my mind a quick, and somewhat inadequate way of saying

1) sometimes it's the leader's fault, sometimes it's the follower's
2) telling a follow she screwed up is rude and will only ruin her following
3) there are plenty of things a leader can do to work around nearly all followers' faults.
4) by saying "it's always the leader's fault" we can neatly avoid the whole issue of blame, and get on with dancing!

My top tips:

1) accommodate! (you lead the moves, yes, but you adapt to your follower's shape, her stride, her height, how she turns, and her preference for shining or styling)

2) communicate! (don't stare into space the whole dance, say hi, ask her how she's doing! make a connection that's not just physical)

3) interpret(ate)! (listen to the tune, does it make you feel hip-hoppy, jazzy, smooth? Are you dancing under the stars, in a ballroom, in the barrio? Start with simple moves to establish a common language then wait for the music to tell you when to do that triple axle toe loop)

4) dontleadtoolate! (Most moves need you to be ready in your mind 4 beats or so before it happens. If you don't know what you're doing next, then do a basic and give her a smile. This is far better than sudden jerky movements as you realize "oo, I could do a double spin!")

Sabor

01-16-2007, 08:49 AM

avoid hair smacks.. specially when hair is stinky

lolita

01-17-2007, 01:10 AM

Now that i can lead....

IF SHE'S NOT FOLLOWING PROPERLY BECAUSE SHES TOO BUSY STYLING......punish her !

Do unto others as you would have done to you :twisted: :buttkick:

HA HA.. i follow properly and i do take care of my styling and the ammuont of interruption i intorduce in a dance, it depends on the leader;if i don't like him, then he gets alot of interruption. :D

and wut u doing here? GIVE MY PYRAMIDS BACK !!!!

Swannie

01-17-2007, 04:35 AM

HA HA.. i follow properly and i do take care of my styling and the ammuont of interruption i intorduce in a dance, it depends on the leader;if i don't like him, then he gets alot of interruption. :D

and wut u doing here? GIVE MY PYRAMIDS BACK !!!!
:) A little bit of interruption is good always good (as long as it is done with a cheeky grin) ;) Feisty!

And I'm not there. I visited, I picked up some stuff and some skills, and I came back to rainy old England.

MacMoto

11-22-2007, 05:31 AM

Thought I'd bump this up - some good stuff here :)

Flex

11-22-2007, 06:20 AM

- Don't overuse it but throw in a double or triple spin now and then - some ladies are waiting for it.

.... and some are asking for it! LOL

On this question of 'fault,' I think it's a sterile argument. Both partners have responsibilities each to the other and either can screw up. A lead should test the level of a new partner before attempting stuff and adapt to her level. But she is still capable of making mistakes at that level, just as a lead is. And so is a partner whose level you know, from one dance to another. It's a fifty-fifty partnership. I wouldn't have it any other way.

One responsibility each has is to pay attention to their partner!. Now, if a follower fails in that basic responsibility then a lot of things are going to be her fault!

.... and this is where I came in in this thread: if she isn't paying attention, throw in a triple or some other move that demands attention!

There are other responsibilities for followers, as we've discussed recently elsewhere: making hands available; taking the hand presented by the lead; not holding on / not letting go; keeping in time; keeping to the basic (unless otherwise led). These are pretty fundamental, yet quite often followers do not discharge these very basic responsibilities and so I can't agree with Pierre - whom I admire in many ways as a teacher and salsa sage - that it is always the lead's 'fault.'

The bottom line is that if a dance is unsatisfactory for whatever reason, you have the choice of saying something / saying nothing; offering / accepting , or not offering / rejecting a future invitation. I would generally be in the 'try to fix it' camp. But nicely!

nowhiteshoes

11-22-2007, 07:15 AM

one not mentioned would be to look down the channel/slot before leading a girl into it to check its clear. also when do drop catches followed by an open break ALWAYS look over your shoulder before leading them forward to check your elbow safely clears their head (to assume makes an a*s out of u and me).

Flujo

11-22-2007, 08:26 AM

Some random thoughts:
<snip>
- Also practise patterns alone with an imaginary follow. If you can imagine a move in detail your body can dance it (almost).
Must remember to start doing this again. ;)

String theory (from rjoe?) - for good posture, imagine a string going all the way through your body, up through your head. Them imagine someone pulling that string up so that you are nice and tall. (works for all Salser@s)

chr

11-22-2007, 12:35 PM

Now that i can lead....

Great, that you suddenly can lead... Why don't you give some lessons to BorikenSalsero? ;)

azzey

11-22-2007, 02:11 PM

Principles of good leadership:

* Rapport: Focus on building rapport with your partner the instant you connect with the eyes or touch and throughout the dance.

Rapport is one of the most important characteristics of unconscious human interaction and can majorly effect the quality of your dance. There are a number of techniques which are useful in establishing or improving it:

- Subtly match body language (posture, gestures, expression).
- Match amount and timing of eye contact.
- Match breathing rhythm with her. Extend this idea from basics into moves (think of 123 as breathing in and 567 breathing out or vice versa).
- Be in-sync/on the same wavelength as the person with whom you are communicating. Synchronise all your movements/moves with hers.
- Emphasise harmony over complexity in your leading.
- Recognise and match their emotional state. Excited, romantic, cool etc.
- Aim for mutual acceptance of each other. Good AND bad qualities.
- Develop a good attitude and intent. A genuine interest in her and her view of the world. See it from her point of view (know the followers role) but accept that sometimes things don't work out and it's nobodys fault.
- Aim for a commonality of perspective (meet her half way there).
- Begin with the end in mind "a wonderful experience" for all.

Lead by making a small non-matching change in your own non-verbal behaviour during the dance. e.g. Grin, wink, lean in, pull away. If they follow/respond (do something similar without you touching them), then you probably have rapport. If not go back to matching and try again with something else. Make it subtle, responses should be at the subconscious level.

* Connection is king! Connection starts with rapport...

* Lead first with rapport (without touching), synchronise naturally to each others movements. Then connect physically and lead through touch AND rapport, now you're so connected that everything just flows.

* In leading, seek first to understand then to be understood. Listen first and continue listening while you're talking!

* Self-control. Do not try to control others, you can only control yourself and thereby influence others by your example.

* Unity: Once you have developed rapport, aim for unity with your partner. Match styling and moves. Create symmetry with your partner. To outsiders you will look like a couple for the 5 minutes of the dance.

* Express your voice in your leading. Reach inside to your feelings of the music, mix and interact with the feelings of your partner through your connection. Groove with them both! Match your leading so all three of you flow together. You, your partner and the feeling of the music.

Flex

11-23-2007, 03:06 AM

Principles of good leadership:

* Rapport: Focus on building rapport with your partner......

I like this post!

AndrewD

11-23-2007, 04:27 AM

SmartAlx

12-03-2007, 07:19 PM

One other reason why it's a good thing to lay blame at the feet of the leader:

Following takes a great deal of trust. And beginners especially have a difficult time dealing with this. Fellow beginning leaders don't earn the trust because they are clearly rough. And advanced leaders are scary. She doesn't know if he's going to do something that she isn't capable of doing. So it's only natural for her to feel some apprehension no matter who she dances with. When I convince a beginner/improver level follower that any screw up is my fault, I often quite literally see a weight lift from her shoulders. She lights up and almost instantly dances better. She relaxes, she doesn't kill the momentum, and she just let's the moves happen. The overall attitude of the dance becomes more enjoyable for both of us.

Once she knows that I'm not going to ridicule her or think badly of her for screw ups, she starts to trust me. And that makes her a much better dancer. Sure, she knows when it's really her fault, even though I take the blame, but when I tell her that it's always my fault she knows that I'm going to do everything that I can to make sure she doesn't feel bad when something does go wrong. It's not the responsibility that she fears, but someone embarrasing her about it.

It always seems to work out better if I take the blame, even if it truly is her fault.

What matters isn't what happened in the past, but what will happen in the future.

azzey

12-05-2007, 05:53 AM

Principles of good leadership:

* Rapport: Focus on building rapport with your partner......

I like this post!

Me too :) it nicely puts into writing my vague and incomplete ideas on the subject of connection. I try to put it into practice most times, but lack the dancing maturity to always succeed – the more experienced you are the better it gets though.

For me it also includes the ability to deal with and process a lot of other information (floor craft, music, mood etc.) and lead the best and most appropriate dance in such a situation.

Thanks. Now that I read it again, it is a bit dry and technical... not the way I like to dance at all.

Think of it in the context of flirting. When you like someone you flirt with them and this is a technical description of what goes on subconsciously when that happens.

Some people can do this naturally with everyone they like. It helps to be aware of it and gives some points to work on to achieve that state all the time.

If you can bypass this and go straight to emotional connection with your partner it will usually happen naturally.

I agree with Boriken in 'the hands' thread:

It is not so much as the technique as it is the meaning behind the lead transformed into emotional touch. The ability to lead emotions with the mere touch of a hand: that is the key to the absolute perfect lead.

amaryllian

12-06-2007, 05:24 PM

Somethings that also could help...

1. Adjuste your level to your follow (i know i repeat others but it's VERY important)

2. Adjust your size of steps (it goes for both dancers)

3. Mostly on parties dance floor is crowded, so people try to avoid stepping on other peoples feet and simillar. - DON'T try to put through some move that needs more space then you have, and if you still try - DON'T pull followers arms in last moment like crazy. That hurts! Rather do basic or some simple move, or even stop to avoid the crush.

4. Don't forget to look at person your dancing with (and smile please) but also be careful and wach around. Please don't give her bored or bad looks if she can't do something. That's rude and can hurt the person (just like stepping on her feet)

opm1s6

05-27-2008, 10:30 PM

here's a couple of things that I have learned that has made my dancing far more fluid.

1. I'm a tall guy and so I used to have a tendency to think that when i went into a two handed turn on 567, I needed to shrug or somehow compensate for my height, when in fact, by moving my hands in a higher position the follower will be just fine in raising her hands an extra 6 inches (i'm not Shaq after all). I never really realized this until I saw myself in a mirror and immediately once i focused on my comfort and not hers on my turns, I gained precious time that made everything smoother and let me prepare sooner for the next move. Everything became fluid, well until I hit my next bad habit...

2. Keep the wrists together! On any two handed turns, do your best to keep the wrists together if you can. You have to focus on it to do it naturally, but it’s key.

3. When you're turning try to focus on keeping your top/pivot hand with the palm up as much as possible through the turn. The follower has to put just a slight pressure there, but it helps to keep the palm up as often as you can.

4. Don't take too big of steps or strafe to one direction in turns on your 6. Another one of the habits I used to have was taking big steps on 6, which is a problem especially when you're talking a 567 side to side, walking in the same direction, or if you're turning. In either situation you'll just make it uncomfortable when you have to adjust.

5. You should be able to spin the girl, with only one finger, the middle finger, but I never use my thumb and in some moves, you can actually hurt the follower.

6. In spinning her, fore-arm should be parallel with the floor and about an inch above her head. Most girls like to think they're angels, so let's just assume you're following a halo over their heads. Small, consistent circles is a requirement of proper spinning. If you're shorter and can't have your arm parallel to the floor, you have to make sure that at least the halo is parallel, even if the arm is not.

7. Keep the hands up when you get out of a turn and are planning for another turn. Lots of beginners, after they spin their partners on 123, drop their hand/hands on 4 and then on 567 raise them again for their own turns. Just keep them up and you buy yourself precious milliseconds that make it all come together.

that's all i can think of for now and I hope it helps.

Yupuhhuh

06-03-2008, 08:38 AM

Yeah, connect with partner, music, but don't ever forget to connect with the dance floor. Probably the most important and hardest thing really...

opm1s6

06-03-2008, 09:52 AM

Yeah, connect with partner, music, but don't ever forget to connect with the dance floor. Probably the most important and hardest thing really...
how do you connect with the dance floor? now i'm massively confused :p

Yupuhhuh

06-03-2008, 10:51 AM

Well a real answer would be increidibly long and it's something you want to figure out for yourself. But I'll give you some quick examples:
Beginner-Weight exchange
Intermediate-Dancing into the floor, not on top of it
Advanced- Grounded

It's a very layered thing and if you go back and look at some of the quasi mystical answers given in previous post it's a good bet it's connecting with the floor.

sweavo

06-03-2008, 10:53 AM

how do you connect with the dance floor? now i'm massively confused :p

You know how walking up stairs feels different to walking down stairs? Go for the walking up stairs feel.

SalsaDanceUnderground

04-23-2009, 04:13 PM

***Cut the extra movements...... too much wiggling around and body swaying and arm flapping makes you look like a flopping fish trying to get back in the watter!!! Not something you want to look like on the dance floor...

***Don't drink too much!!!!---- need I say more!

***Bring a Towel to wipe off the sweat! if you don't know this by now, well then you will just have to learn it the hard way..

***Don't try and ask out every girl you dance with!!!! you will just come across as creapy!:raisebrow:

:eek:*********DO NOT TRY AND COP A FEEL**********:eek:
keep the hands off the red zones...... look, don't touch!!

Ron Obvious

08-12-2010, 05:14 PM

***Bring a Towel to wipe off the sweat! if you don't know this by now, well then you will just have to learn it the hard way..

Wait, the hard way? I thought you were gonna say the *fun* way... ;)

code808

11-05-2011, 01:25 AM

MrCrispy

11-05-2011, 02:48 AM

06-03-2008
04-23-2009
08-12-2010
11-04-2011

This thread gets a post ~once a year :) I'm glad it got bumped, nice thread.

- don't elbow her in the face twice (most girls will let you get away with one :))

The most important quality is to have fun. You can make mistakes, not know a million patterns, get out of sync, but as long as you have a good attitude, smile and have fun, and (this is really the key) make your partner also feel the same, it's all good.

I see beginners having more fun learning to dance as they fumble than jaded pros executing complex moves and just going thru the motions with a bored look in their eyes.

sagitta

11-05-2011, 05:51 AM

The most important quality is to have fun. You can make mistakes, not know a million patterns, get out of sync, but as long as you have a good attitude, smile and have fun, and (this is really the key) make your partner also feel the same, it's all good.

I see beginners having more fun learning to dance as they fumble than jaded pros executing complex moves and just going thru the motions with a bored look in their eyes.
That is why I dance with so many beginners. They are hvaing fun.

I would say connecting with your partner is number 1 for me.

Chris_Yannick

11-06-2011, 01:02 AM

That is why I dance with so many beginners. They are hvaing fun.

Hear, hear, Sagitta.

My number one rule - Have fun.

Everything else is secondary.

azzey

11-07-2011, 10:04 AM

- don't elbow her in the face twice (most girls will let you get away with one :))

The opposite also, you can let her get away with one (elbowing you) but after that (learn to) duck!

Blair

11-07-2011, 11:30 AM

I'm more of an eye for an eye type of guy (see what I did there). If she elbows me, I'll get her back...might not in that dance, but I'll hit her REALLY hard in the next one we have.

EMOYENO

11-07-2011, 11:36 AM

I'm more of an eye for an eye type of guy (see what I did there). If she elbows me, I'll get her back...might not in that dance, but I'll hit her REALLY hard in the next one we have. :oops:
ouch!!!

olamalam

11-07-2011, 01:21 PM

I'm more of an eye for an eye type of guy (see what I did there). If she elbows me, I'll get her back...might not in that dance, but I'll hit her REALLY hard in the next one we have.

while following i might hit guy balls with my knee, ohh my poor styling :tongue:

Sonny

01-26-2012, 08:36 AM

Is Salsa the most technical social dance out there? I dance merengue and bachata decently because they're close to what I grew up dancing, but Salsa varies so much by where you're from. It's slower in the states than it is in areas of the Caribbean for instance.

It's fun though and I want to get to the point where I feel good asking and leading anyone through a dance without feeling too self aware.

azzey

01-26-2012, 11:11 AM

Welcome to SF!

Is Salsa the most technical social dance out there?

I dance merengue and bachata decently because they're close to what I grew up dancing, but Salsa varies so much by where you're from.

All dances require good technique to dance well. You might think that because you didn't grow up with Salsa but you did with Bachata and Merengue, so there's a lot for you to learn that is new for you.

It's slower in the states than it is in areas of the Caribbean for instance.

The speed of the dance follows the tempo of the music, nothing to do with style. When I dance Cuban salsa or LA style Salsa to slow or fast tracks it varies because of the music, not so much the style.

It's fun though and I want to get to the point where I feel good asking and leading anyone through a dance without feeling too self aware.

Yes that's a good point to get to. Good luck.

wildbill20056

01-26-2012, 12:26 PM

No no, ballroom is far more technical.

Salsa occupies a sort of middle ground, more technical than Ceroq, less technical than Argentine Tango.

With regards to pace I think you'll find blistering tracks everywhere ;)

azzey

01-26-2012, 01:22 PM

DaveFUK

01-27-2012, 07:11 AM

No no, ballroom is far more technical.

Salsa occupies a sort of middle ground, more technical than Ceroq, less technical than Argentine Tango.

I've seen Ballroom taught in a very non technical way as I have AT.

What makes you say that AT is more technical than Salsa?

DJ Yuca

01-27-2012, 07:27 AM

more technical than Ceroq

I've taught ring games to 3 year olds that have been more technical than ceroc.

LawrenceS

01-27-2012, 10:19 AM

What makes you say that AT is more technical than Salsa?

Argentine Tango is more technical in the sense that it is the leaders who lead the weight transfers of the follows. It's often a much closer embrace and requires much more precision in footwork and frame. There is no basic step; all steps are led, although the "8-count basic" and other dance patterns are taught at classes. Style is more apparently important as it helps the leader significantly in leads; a poor walk transfers to the whole body and inhibits communication through the frame. In all of these respects, Argentine tango is much more technical. By contrast, salsa dancers don't have such stringent requirements for a dance to start and end.

olamalam

01-27-2012, 11:07 AM

AndrewS

01-27-2012, 01:46 PM

LawrenceS

01-27-2012, 02:39 PM

I went to a AT party once. my friend showed me some basics for half an hour and then I danced with her for a couple of songs. then i asked a couple of more girls in the party!
this is impossible in salsa.

weight transfer thing in tango doesnt make it more technical than salsa. i'm not saying that tango is less technical or more technical than salsa because my tango knowledge is limited to one night. (yes, only one night. at least i can say that it is much less enjoyable than salsa)

What you describe is akin to club style salsa instruction where the follower learns the steps so that the leader doesn't actually have to lead anything.

Weight transfer is a very difficult skill for leaders to learn in tango. It's not simply an upper body motion that causes the follower to shift weight from one leg to the other but an entire body motion. The movements are very subtle and unnoticeable to any novice viewer.

azzey

01-27-2012, 03:09 PM

What you describe is akin to club style salsa instruction where the follower learns the steps so that the leader doesn't actually have to lead anything.

Weight transfer is a very difficult skill for leaders to learn in tango. It's not simply an upper body motion that causes the follower to shift weight from one leg to the other but an entire body motion. The movements are very subtle and unnoticeable to any novice viewer.

Weight transfer is always a whole body experience regardless of the dance you're doing, be it Salsa, Tango etc.

Body leading is body leading, regardless of the dance...

These are skills which are integral to any dance form.

LawrenceS

01-27-2012, 10:43 PM

I meant that it is the leader who transfers the follower's weight from foot to foot; the follower doesn't do this on her own. In salsa, the follower transfers her own weight and the leader leads knowing that the weight will be on a certain foot.

Offbeat

01-28-2012, 05:57 AM

If we were to compare degrees of difficulty, AT is more difficult than Salsa. Yes it is easier to follow the instruction in the AT class (walk) initially compare to salsa (patterns). AT beginner classes emphasize on musicality and walking to it (been discussed in older threads). There is hardly much emphasis on musicality in Salsa beginner classes generally. LawrenceS is also correct than in AT leader has to lead follower to change her weight. Both need to know on which foot other's weight is (though in learning stages it is more important for the leader to be learn to be aware where the follower's weight is). It takes much longer for a leader to get good at milongas (AT equivalent of social dancing) compared to Salsa. At one time (7-8 years back) almost every instructor I asked said the same thing - For a leader it takes a year or two before they than dance at Milongas. Talk about Beginner's hell!!

vit

01-28-2012, 08:14 AM

Well, if you want to execute several figures in the pattern, you don't need a year or two, whether it is salsa or arg. tago or ballroom. But if you want to be a good leader, it does take several years in all dances, so I don't see why arg. tango is an exception. The difference is that you will learn some things earlier and some later in particular dance, depending on current teaching methods, which are different in those dances and are also changing during time. I don't dance tango because I can't listen to that music more than 10 minutes, but attended several classes in the past. First class was quite classical, learning some syllabus figures, like in ballroom or salsa. However, recently most argentine tango schools are influenced by tango nuevo teaching method, so you don't learn figures at the beginning, but you learn to be aware why some movement is made etc. Well, while this teaching method looks quite different from ballroom and salsa, actually it is not - you still have to give the students some examples to practice on - and that's why syllabus figures were invented at the first place I suppose ... So in argentine tango you will learn musicality earlier and in salsa later, while in salsa you will learn some usual moves earlier and in tango later ... but to be a good leader you need both (and many other things), so you will need several years in both salsa and tango ...

sagitta

01-28-2012, 09:21 AM

I agree vit. If we are talking about being a good/great leader it takes time. In different dances one can reach a certain "tolerable" competence where one can go out and dance and have fun. This may be quicker/easier in some dance styles then others, BUT to be GOOD takes time in salsa, swing, ballroom, tango...dance styles....

azzey

01-28-2012, 11:10 AM

Argentine Tango is more technical in the sense that it is the leaders who lead the weight transfers of the follows. It's often a much closer embrace and requires much more precision in footwork and frame. There is no basic step; all steps are led, although the "8-count basic" and other dance patterns are taught at classes. Style is more apparently important as it helps the leader significantly in leads; a poor walk transfers to the whole body and inhibits communication through the frame. In all of these respects, Argentine tango is much more technical.

You are missing the point. All these things may be differences (depending on ones viewpoint) but that does not make them more or less than another dance. Just elements. There are probably more elements of technique in Salsa than in AT at a high level (yes I've done AT as well), but I'm not going to argue it either way.

At a high level both would require a high level of technique. The entry level may be higher for some aspects of AT, though you don't need to learn to balance while turning fast or spinning in AT do you? You're trying to judge one dance (Salsa) by the merits of the other (AT).

By contrast, salsa dancers don't have such stringent requirements for a dance to start and end.

There is just as much requirement for lead/follow in Salsa, the balance of the elements are different that's all. The elements are still there, if you want to dance well. Would you also argue that AT's musicality is more than Salsa's musicality? How can one musicality be more than another? In the same way it's absurd to say that one method of leading is more than another, different but not more.

splashiton

01-28-2012, 12:40 PM

I agree with @JazzHands, if we ain't clean and sweet it can be very awkward for all around. I'm actually amazed at the number of ladies with bad armpits which, whilst still only in the low single-figure percent, is still a higher figure than expected.

LawrenceS

01-29-2012, 08:42 AM

You are missing the point. All these things may be differences (depending on ones viewpoint) but that does not make them more or less than another dance. Just elements. There are probably more elements of technique in Salsa than in AT at a high level (yes I've done AT as well), but I'm not going to argue it either way.

At a high level both would require a high level of technique. The entry level may be higher for some aspects of AT, though you don't need to learn to balance while turning fast or spinning in AT do you? You're trying to judge one dance (Salsa) by the merits of the other (AT).

The smaller the movements, the greater the necessities of fine motor control. In AT, the movements are often much smaller due to the constraints of the embrace. As a result, the accessibility of the dance is greatly limited to those who have learned this control.

The large movements in salsa that are necessary to lead does not require such fine motor control. As a result, it is much more accessible to a larger audience without as much practice.

And yes, even in AT there are turns and spins, though not often.

There is just as much requirement for lead/follow in Salsa, the balance of the elements are different that's all. ... In the same way it's absurd to say that one method of leading is more than another, different but not more.

There are many basics of leading in tango which are completely absent in salsa, which I've mentioned, which is the point of argument to say that Argentine tango is more technical than salsa. In salsa, the leader rarely transfers the follower's weight, if at all, but in AT, it is a requirement to lead. In salsa, it's possible to dance without ever making contact, alla mambo, but the tango is all about the embrace.

Leading in tango is a hell of a lot more technical than salsa.

vit

01-29-2012, 10:31 AM

Well, I transfer the weight of my followers quite often, because I like to play with it ... maybe I'm not a typical salsero, as I came from ballroom, but I'm quite sure that there are many salseros that are much better than me and that they are doing the same, because advanced followers are very familiar with that, so obviously I'm not the only one doing that ...

There are small/precise movements when leading the partner in salsa also, but because they are small they are not that visible as they are overwhelmed by big movements. Surely there are more small movements in tango, as you can't do that things big and stay in close hold or embrace as tango dancers call it ...

However, you won't see this at beginner and intermediate levels of salsa ... but I'm quite sure I don't see much of that at comparable levels of argentine tango dancers either

I think that comparing oranges and apples doesn't make much sense, because tango and salsa are obviously quite different, so we can always find arguments that one dance is "better" than another in various aspects ... but at high levels, many things turn to be quite similar

petteri

01-29-2012, 11:12 AM

The smaller the movements, the greater the necessities of fine motor control. In AT, the movements are often much smaller due to the constraints of the embrace. As a result, the accessibility of the dance is greatly limited to those who have learned this control.

In think that "standard" dances are generally easier to lead than dances which use one-hand holds. Man moves and lady follows. Two-handed leads and body leads generally do not require such connection, precision and timing as advanced one-hand leads.

The large movements in salsa that are necessary to lead does not require such fine motor control. As a result, it is much more accessible to a larger audience without as much practice.

In my experience high-quality crossbody salsa has the smallest and most sensitive leads of any social dance form I have danced.

Smejmoon

01-29-2012, 11:13 AM

There are many basics of leading in tango which are completely absent in salsa, which I've mentioned, which is the point of argument to say that Argentine tango is more technical than salsa. In salsa, the leader rarely transfers the follower's weight, if at all, but in AT, it is a requirement to lead. In salsa, it's possible to dance without ever making contact, alla mambo, but the tango is all about the embrace.

Leading in tango is a hell of a lot more technical than salsa.

Not sure you have significant experience with salsa to make such statements. In good salsa leader transfers the follower's weight all the time in the closed position and much of the time in the open.

Argentine tango would be incredibly boring without certain technique, while in salsa people can jump around happily solo or holding hands and have fun. If you're compare non contact salsa with AT you're correct. But that's not how salsa works in the real life. :) Don't compare salsa newbies with trained tango dancers.

P.S. I'm a beginner in the salsa and discovering all the cool things dancers can do when they play with each others weight. Try different follows and you'll find out some of them actually follow you.

Also have you danced salsa with advanced leads?

Smejmoon

01-29-2012, 12:31 PM

the accessibility of the dance is greatly limited to those who have learned this control.

The large movements in salsa that are necessary to lead does not require such fine motor control. As a result, it is much more accessible to a larger audience without as much practice.

After reading this, I think we don't have such disagreement after all. Except when we might agree that there is higher bar for satisfactory tango, this does not mean there is upper limit on what's possible in the salsa.

vit

01-30-2012, 12:54 AM

In think that "standard" dances are generally easier to lead than dances which use one-hand holds. Man moves and lady follows. Two-handed leads and body leads generally do not require such connection, precision and timing as advanced one-hand leads.

Depends on level of the dance and figures being danced again. If you gonna dance some social foxtrot or slow waltz, surely it's quite easy to lead the partner by grabbing her with both hands and start walking around the room dancing some simple figures or dance pattern

However, really good leader is capable of leading the partner into syllabus figures using zero hands, and good follower should be able to follow maintaining only light body contact, doing extremely long steps (compared to social ballroom standard or salsa for instance) and it should look as you don't put any effort in that movement (although it's very far from that). Having perfect balance, although you are out of statical balance all the time is essential for that to work. It's quite demanding. So far, I never met a good social b/r standard leader without competitive background (while I know some good social salsa and AT leaders without any previous dancing history), although I believe they exist in some countries like England, Germany etc ...

Things change when more complex figures are danced, where you really can't do it without usage of hands, common balance etc - just like in some moves in salsa. The same is true for low level dancers dancing simple/syllabus figures - they are too demanding for them, so they also have to use both hands all the time to prevent falling apart as a couple ...

Offbeat

01-30-2012, 07:16 PM

You are missing the point. All these things may be differences (depending on ones viewpoint) but that does not make them more or less than another dance. Just elements. There are probably more elements of technique in Salsa than in AT at a high level (yes I've done AT as well), but I'm not going to argue it either way.

At a high level both would require a high level of technique. The entry level may be higher for some aspects of AT, though you don't need to learn to balance while turning fast or spinning in AT do you? You're trying to judge one dance (Salsa) by the merits of the other (AT)..

Let's take an analogy. That is akin to saying that Math and History are equally difficult to study/learn. Yes they may be equally difficult for someone doing PhD in them respectively. With all due apology to historians, at the high school through college level, people generally find math more difficult than history.

At the highest level any discipline is equally hard. But we are not talking about that. We are talking about an average dancer. All things being equal, an average dancer is much more likely to have fun at Salsa sooner than at AT. Or in other words learning curve in AT is going to be steeper to reach an equivalent level of proficiency.

Also for most of the people who dance both, whom I know, have maintained that AT is more difficult. Not that my sample size is significant (about dozen or so).

azana

01-30-2012, 07:22 PM

Let's take an analogy. That is akin to saying that Math and History are equally to study/learn. Yes they may be equally difficult for someone doing PhD in them respectively. With all due apology to historians, at the high school through college level, people generally find math more difficult than history.

At the highest level any discipline is equally hard. But we are not talking about that. We are talking about an average dancer. All things being equal, an average dancer is much more likely to have fun at Salsa sooner than at AT. Or in other words learning curve in AT is going to be steeper to reach an equivalent level of proficiency.

Also for most of the people who dance both, whom I know, have maintained that AT is more difficult. Not that my sample size is significant (about dozen or so).

You are so lucky I am not about to enter into a pedagogical argument on a dance forum.

(Offended history teacher here grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!)

Offbeat

01-30-2012, 07:23 PM

I think that comparing oranges and apples doesn't make much sense, because tango and salsa are obviously quite different, so we can always find arguments that one dance is "better" than another in various aspects ... but at high levels, many things turn to be quite similar

The question is and was never about one dance being better than other. That is a strawman argument. The question is whether learning curve in AT is steeper than in Salsa to reach same level of proficiency. Or to put it in other words - take 100 dancers. Teach them salsa once a week and AT once a week. After say 20 weeks, can you compare their proficiency in each dance. There might be outliers who will be much better in one than the other. A significant number will be more at ease dancing one than the other.

Offbeat

01-30-2012, 07:26 PM

You are so lucky I am not about to enter into a pedagogical argument on a dance forum.

(Offended history teacher here grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!)

I knew I would offend someone. But you only have to look at what the whole country (of USA) talks about when it comes to education - low achievement scores in math and science :)

azana

01-30-2012, 07:33 PM

What they care about. Also the questionable methods of measurement. Snapshot standardised tests designed to rank schools and chase favorable international ratings rather than provide positive washback for students.

Whatever. Signing out now before subjecting readers to additional non-dance related ranting!

Offbeat

01-30-2012, 07:34 PM

Well, I transfer the weight of my followers quite often, because I like to play with it ... maybe I'm not a typical salsero, as I came from ballroom, but I'm quite sure that there are many salseros that are much better than me and that they are doing the same, because advanced followers are very familiar with that, so obviously I'm not the only one doing that ...

There are small/precise movements when leading the partner in salsa also, but because they are small they are not that visible as they are overwhelmed by big movements. Surely there are more small movements in tango, as you can't do that things big and stay in close hold or embrace as tango dancers call it ...

However, you won't see this at beginner and intermediate levels of salsa ... but I'm quite sure I don't see much of that at comparable levels of argentine tango dancers either

At end of the day, all partner dances (except ceroc:P) share most of the techniques. That is not the argument. It is about which techniques you have to use more often when dancing a particular dance.

There are other factors when you go to Milonga. E.g. Unlike salsa you can't dance where you like; you are constrained by the line of dance, how fast the line is moving, who is ahead and behind you (there by more spatial awareness and ability to react to it). Arguably same can be said in salsa if there are more people on the floor, you have to dance small, avoid hitting or getting hit by other close by etc. But it is not the same. And of course you don't have to deal with snobbish followers in salsa :D That last point should settle the argument :P

azzey

01-30-2012, 09:58 PM

The question is and was never about one dance being better than other. That is a strawman argument. The question is whether learning curve in AT is steeper than in Salsa to reach same level of proficiency.

I accept that one may have a steeper learning curve in certain areas BUT that was NOT the original statement.

Or to put it in other words - take 100 dancers. Teach them salsa once a week and AT once a week. After say 20 weeks, can you compare their proficiency in each dance. There might be outliers who will be much better in one than the other. A significant number will be more at ease dancing one than the other.

LOL. If you take that as your method - Take 100 Ceroc dancers and see how diabolical they are compared to the Tango and Salsa dancers after the same period. Does that make Ceroc more technical than either? Ha!

It completely depends on the teacher and teaching methods used. As has been proven time and again when you look at students from different schools and areas after the same amount of time learning. The emphasis on technique or not, the emphasis on quality or not, the emphasis on fun or not.. how good the overall scene is.

Then what criteria do you use to compare the proficiency of Salsa dancers to Tango dancers may I ask?

If it's the number who are comfortable dancing socially (as has been suggested earlier) that would highly depend on the friendliness of the scene to beginner dancers, how much the teacher tells them to "go dance socially" etc. Very little to do with technique.

The ones who get more social dancing experience will, on average, be better dancers and more at ease after the same time period.

azzey

01-30-2012, 10:18 PM

All things being equal, an average dancer is much more likely to have fun at Salsa sooner than at AT.

Or in other words learning curve in AT is going to be steeper to reach an equivalent level of proficiency.

Also for most of the people who dance both, whom I know, have maintained that AT is more difficult. Not that my sample size is significant (about dozen or so).

For the fun argument see my post above - it has much more to do with social dynamics than technique.

I didn't find AT hard at all to dance socially the first time. I even started dancing Milongas before I took a single class! The whole slow pace of the dance relative to Salsa means that it's much easier to learn on-the-fly if anything. :evil: Like Kizomba. :razz:

Probably one of the hardest thing for some people to get over is the proximity to the opposite sex ; now again, nothing to do with technique.

Btw, I saw some Tango teachers dance recently who had major flaws in basic dance technique like weight transfer, leading/following, balance etc. They were visibly shaking/off balance during a dance demo. Was the poor dancing (relative to what I've seen other Tango dancers demonstrate) a product of the learning curve of AT? Even though they'd been dancing longer than 10 years. They sure looked like they were having fun! :rolleyes:

azzey

01-30-2012, 10:27 PM

The smaller the movements, the greater the necessities of fine motor control. In AT, the movements are often much smaller due to the constraints of the embrace. As a result, the accessibility of the dance is greatly limited to those who have learned this control.

The large movements in salsa that are necessary to lead does not require such fine motor control. As a result, it is much more accessible to a larger audience without as much practice.

In Cuban Salsa the embrace in closed hold can be closer and rely much more on body leading and fine motor control.

Kizomba has a fairly similar embrace (at least proximity wise) to AT and requires fine motor control leading followers weight with small movements. Is Kizomba equally as technical as AT?

Kizomba is a mix of Tango and Merengue, yes?

Nail in coffin:

If you agree that Kizomba is more technical than Salsa, Salsa dancers will laugh at you. If you disagree you lose your argument because Kizomba has those same elements you're claiming win your argument.

Kizomba is quite accessible so it seems. Perhaps it's the culture and not the dance.

vit

01-31-2012, 01:00 AM

The question is and was never about one dance being better than other. That is a strawman argument. The question is whether learning curve in AT is steeper than in Salsa to reach same level of proficiency. Or to put it in other words - take 100 dancers. Teach them salsa once a week and AT once a week. After say 20 weeks, can you compare their proficiency in each dance. There might be outliers who will be much better in one than the other. A significant number will be more at ease dancing one than the other.

Well, teaching methods in various dances are different, so learning curves have different shapes. So I agree that after a certain period of time, salsa dancer can dance a number of moves, while progression of AT dancer isn't as obvious, as he was learning how to walk, transfer weight etc at that time ... however, I'm not measuring the quality of the dancer by the number of moves, but by the quality of his movement, so using that criteria, AT dancer could be even better

Also, as Azzey said, there are other things here that I already mentioned in some other threads when compared salsa and social ballroom scene in my area. In salsa, we have much better teachers. People are younger. They are dancing much more frequently. Many girls have some dancing background. Music is more challenging. Dance is more challenging etc ... so people at salsa are progressing faster, while at social ballroom (in my area) I could say they are actually regressing ....

Regarding line of dance you mentioned, it exists also in most ballroom dances. Ability to move along it and avoid other couples is called floorcraft in ballroom. However, in cross body salsa (and some other dances) we have slots - it's not much different, just it's a line of dance packed at the same place, instead of being developed along the room. It's just a different traffic regulation

azzey

01-31-2012, 10:39 AM

Well, teaching methods in various dances are different, so learning curves have different shapes. So I agree that after a certain period of time, salsa dancer can dance a number of moves, while progression of AT dancer isn't as obvious, as he was learning how to walk, transfer weight etc at that time ... however, I'm not measuring the quality of the dancer by the number of moves, but by the quality of his movement, so using that criteria, AT dancer could be even better

Yes I agree. If you looked at quality of fundamentals after the same time period your average AT dancer would likely be better than the average Salsa dancer, unless the Salsa teacher in question focused mainly on fundamentals also. It really depends on the teacher and how much basic training the local students are willing to sit through.

Smejmoon

01-31-2012, 10:47 AM

We are talking about an average dancer. All things being equal, an average dancer is much more likely to have fun at Salsa sooner than at AT.

Talking about average tango dancer. What do they do in your area? Over here in a few milongas I've seen, average tango dancer will sit at the table, drink red wine and look bored. When I was grooving solo, I felt inappropriate, but music was nice, so I did not care.

Is it like that in other places too, where average tango dancer actually won't dance for most of the night? In salsa it seems people dance half the songs or more. And those who like to drink not dance, will have fun with like minded.

This is not about dance, but culture around it. I see some dances are more classes oriented and actual dancing is monthly with shows in between. There are salsa schools who think that's what salsa is about too.

sweavo

01-31-2012, 11:51 AM

Over here in a few milongas I've seen, average tango dancer will sit at the table, drink red wine and look bored. When I was grooving solo, I felt inappropriate, but music was nice, so I did not care.

They have possibly been instructed to do this. At the AT classes I attended in 2004 we were told about the etiquette of asking for, and being asked to, dance. It involved a lot of sitting and looking bored, attempted eye contact, and continuing to look bored. All for what seemed like pretty good reasons actually.

azzey

01-31-2012, 12:14 PM

There's also the 3 dance rule. Where you dance 3 dances in a row with the same partner.

Tango etiquette is similar but different to Salsa etiquette.

http://www.tangoconcepts.com/etiquette.html

vit

01-31-2012, 01:51 PM

Tango etiquette is similar but different to Salsa etiquette.

http://www.tangoconcepts.com/etiquette.html

Interesting stuff. Many rules apply to salsa also

However, I'm sure most guys from my area would exchange the sentence "avoid displaying any body parts not generally acceptable in public" with sentence "avoid covering any body parts generally desirable to be displayed in public" :D

Offbeat

01-31-2012, 07:16 PM

The thread is going too off topic! We can move the AT discussion to anonymous section. Happy to discuss it there.

azzey

01-31-2012, 08:29 PM

The thread is going too off topic! We can move the AT discussion to anonymous section. Happy to discuss it there.

Aww.. I'm enjoying this. I'm sure it will fork a new thread soon if we continue.

6 posts to go..

azana

02-01-2012, 01:33 AM

Yes, I'm very accomplished at thread forks and tangents.

Offbeat might like this one - our math teacher just asked if I wanted to start going to rueda classes with him on Mondays...only he wants to go in at beginners, quote, "I like fooling around in beginners" !

olamalam

02-01-2012, 02:30 AM

Well, one of best friends is going back to Argentina and in her last day in London, she invited me to a tango party tonight. i have to go. I hope thus will be my second and the last tango experience :)

Offbeat

02-01-2012, 02:51 AM

Offbeat

02-01-2012, 02:53 AM

Aww.. I'm enjoying this. I'm sure it will fork a new thread soon if we continue.

6 posts to go..

Ahh! Is that the magic number to the fork ? :D

azzey

02-01-2012, 11:12 AM

Ahh! Is that the magic number to the fork ? :D

2 posts to go..

It's the number of posts until I join the 3K club. :D

londongirl

02-01-2012, 11:26 AM

2 posts to go..

It's the number of posts until I join the 3K club. :D

3000 minus 2978 = 22 not 2 (no?) :P

azzey

02-01-2012, 11:31 AM

3000 minus 2978 = 22 not 2 (no?) :P

Hahahah.. :doh: was drinking heavily last night when I started thinking that.. maths and beer always go well together ;) and today don't have my contact lenses in yet. I feel a round of the 'ditto', 'tritto' game coming on. :D

olamalam

02-01-2012, 12:07 PM

Hahahah.. :doh: was drinking heavily last night when I started thinking that.. and today don't have my contact lenses in yet. I feel a round of the 'ditto', 'tritto' game coming on. :D

:lol:

I guessed you were counting down from 3000 and there was something wrong with it.

This deserves a nomination for next year ;)
I'm noting it down.

azzey

02-01-2012, 12:50 PM

:lol:

I guessed you were counting down from 3000 and there was something wrong with it.

This deserves a nomination for next year ;)
I'm noting it down.

:lol:

Smejmoon

02-01-2012, 03:04 PM

:lol:

I guessed you were counting down from 3000 and there was something wrong with it.

This deserves a nomination for next year ;)
I'm noting it down.

Almost countdown of the year?

Offbeat

02-01-2012, 03:44 PM

3000 minus 2978 = 22 not 2 (no?) :P

Azana: Can we agree Salsa is easier than Math ? :D

Offbeat

02-01-2012, 03:44 PM

2 posts to go..

It's the number of posts until I join the 3K club. :D

I at first thought that too but it wasn't adding up :D

azana

02-02-2012, 02:42 AM

Azana: Can we agree Salsa is easier than Math ? :D

It's clearly easier than English (you have a grammatical error in a Salsa Open Diary post) hehe :P

Salsa is definitely easier than math for me! Nevetheless, still have plenty to learn :)

olamalam

02-02-2012, 04:36 AM

It's clearly easier than English (you have a grammatical error in a Salsa Open Diary post) hehe :P

I'm sure I have more errors in the same thread but people don't have high expectations from me :lol:

Offbeat

02-02-2012, 04:55 AM

It's clearly easier than English (you have a grammatical error in a Salsa Open Diary post) hehe :P

Yes, unfortunately! Unlike artistic license in salsa there is no grammatical license to get rid of that:D

londongirl

02-02-2012, 04:56 AM

Yes, unfortunately! Unlike artistic license in salsa there is no grammatical license :D

Yes there is, it's called poetry :)

Offbeat

02-02-2012, 05:00 AM

Yes there is, it's called poetry :)

Only if it were to sound like poetry to Azana's ears :D

Smejmoon

02-02-2012, 06:08 AM

Azana: Can we agree Salsa is easier than Math ? :D

Salsa is definitely easier than math for me! Nevetheless, still have plenty to learn :)

Salsa is math. Pattern monkey business is an algebra.

Sonny

03-17-2012, 08:26 PM

Huh...can someone sum up this thread?

toan-hoang

03-19-2012, 09:18 PM

olamalam

03-20-2012, 10:07 AM

This is one of my favourite threads.
Together with
Salsa followers - your golden rules (http://salsaforums.com/showthread.php?t=506)

terence

03-20-2012, 11:21 AM

This is one of my favourite threads.
Together with
Salsa followers - your golden rules (http://salsaforums.com/showthread.php?t=506)

Heres my current Golden rule.. when I walk onto the dance floor,I make sure I have partner .

olamalam

03-20-2012, 11:27 AM

Heres my current Golden rule.. when I walk onto the dance floor,I make sure I have partner .

yeah, it's pretty emberrasing to walk back alone.

But hey, you can pretend like you wanted to go to the toilet and used the dance floor as short cut. Keep walking silently and come back after 2-3 mins.

olamalam

03-20-2012, 11:49 AM

Avoid sudden movements while leading. Lead throughout 8 beats.
When you think that a part of the song is not very suitable for partnerwork, stop leading! Depending on the reason* you can either do shines or come to closed hold and have some romantic moments.
Try to get as much information as possible about your partners level and dance taste. And behave accordingly. She may love or hate doing footwork or spinning.
Be aware which of your moves might be dangerous on the dance floor. (ie some moves involves your elbows up.) Work on them to make them as safe as possible or remove from your repertoire.
Lead with necessary amounts of inputs**. Increase the number of inputs if you need to make your leading more clear.
Don't try to lead the whole pattern that you've seen in the class. Instead, break down the routines to smaller parts and lead them.
While spinning the lady, don't change the number of the spins in your mind. ***
If your partner criticises you, keep smiling and dancing and say thank you. Don't get frusturated (she might be right or not, doesn't matter). Don't try to prove that she was wrong. Just carry on.
Don't criticise or educate your partner unless she asks you to do so.

* It can be a percussion or piano solo, an intro or some other part in the song where there's no certain beats that you can count like 123-567 (like a violin or flute solo) Or even simply you might not get the timing for a specific part.
** For certain moves, while with some followers it's necessary to lead with your free hand from her hips, shoulders etc, whereas with others it may not be necessary.
*** If it is 3, lead 3 spins. Don't think like ohh should I do 2 or 4 while spinning her. Decide/fix that number before spin prep according to your partners level.

Salsa Student

03-20-2012, 02:10 PM

3) Half of the lead comes from good positioning, where you position yourself really does helps you lead your moves...

Yes, and something that gets addressed very little in most classes.

While spinning the lady, don't change the number of the spins in your mind. ***
*** If it is 3, lead 3 spins. Don't think like ohh should I do 2 or 4 while spinning her. Decide/fix that number before spin prep according to your partners level.

I have to disagree somewhat here. While it's important to indicate with your prep how many spins you intend to lead, it's also important to react to your partner and lead fewer spins than you inteded if there are any problems.

olamalam

03-20-2012, 04:29 PM

I was talking about the hesitating there. I deliberately mention "according to followers level" thing. in other words, dont kill her of course or dont punish her with the last spin if she is dead after the second spin. thats for sure.

this should have happened to many of us, we go for a triple and notice that she is following it super easy. then you think like ohh shall I fit one more spin?? that hesitation messes up the whole move.

similarly, ohh lets lead double instead of 3 and add a turn for myself.

Chris_Yannick

03-21-2012, 06:30 PM

My golden rules...

1) Always focus on the follower, when leading all moves think about how the follower experiences this.
2) Try to understand how your follower likes to dance, and do your moves according to her. As a leader you control the dance, so make it enjoyable for your partner i.e. if she hates spinning, don't spin her...
3) Half of the lead comes from good positioning, where you position yourself really does helps you lead your moves...
4) Review yourself constantly, if a move doesn't work, don't just try it again, think why and if there is anything else you can do to make it more understandable.
5) Don't ever think that a little more strength is the answer...
6) Relax and breath...

These are great Toan!

#2 is my absolutely favourite! I am constantly looking at how I can cater the dance to better suit my partner. Does she like to shine or is she deathly afraid to be let go? does she enjoy spinning or does it make her vomit? does she enjoy patternwork or is she not fond of monkeys? does she want to be playful and flirty or do I focus more on providing an unmistakable, clear lead?