Does the music move you - or do you just do the moves?

N

Nickie p

I'm a newbie to Salsa and to these boards. I was wondering - I used to dance as a youngster (ballet and tap) it was all choreograhed moves etc - so no real creativity involved and have started going to Salsa in the last few weeks.

I was watching some of the more advanced people after the class last week and one girl in particular was dancing (she's been dancing for 3 years and I think she's really good). What amazed me - is that although she was obviously being "led" in the dance she was able to know the moves well enough to add her own "flair" to her side of the moves.

As a beginner I just about follow the moves so am unable to embellish them to my own style but it got me thinking. Is flair / style something that comes with knowledge of the steps, is it purely imagination and its either there from the start or just not there - or are all steps taught and you just kinda go along with them.

What do you all think. I'd like to think its something that grows as your knowledge and skill base does - coz at the moment I'm hopeless to even see where I could add my own style let alone think of ever adding my own manners to the dance!

Nic
 
Hi Nickie :)

I see that you might be a bit overwhelmed. It hasn't been all that long ago that I felt the same way and I assure you, you'll start developing your own "flair" given the time....

Nickie p said:
What amazed me - is that although she was obviously being "led" in the dance she was able to know the moves well enough to add her own "flair" to her side of the moves.
Click to expand...

If she is truely a good dancer, than she's good not because she knew the moves well enough but because she really feels the music and is able to reflect what she feels according to the music. Am assuming you meant patterns when you said "moves". Of course, she being used to the parter she was dancing with would also help the self-expression because you don't have to worry about the following aspect so much.

Nickie p said:
As a beginner I just about follow the moves so am unable to embellish them to my own style but it got me thinking. Is flair / style something that comes with knowledge of the steps, is it purely imagination and its either there from the start or just not there - or are all steps taught and you just kinda go along with them.
Click to expand...

I think your own flair/sabor can be developed through watching others, through the music, through the various partners you danced with, and through many other factors, not just learning the steps. As you improve, you'd realise that some moves don't even have to be taught in class room setting given a decent lead. I've been surprised by myself at what I could do sometimes when the right combination of lead and music was present ;)

Some natural dancers may find it easier than others to gain that flair but I'd say most would develop it from their learning. Having backgrounds in afro-cuban culture may be also an advantage in getting that flair. Anyways, even those natural dancers will be learning from their dancing experience and developing their flair.

As a beginner, learning the basic technique and patterns are essential, but eventually, you gotta develop your own flair (and you will be able to if you continue dancing).


hmm what i wrote above is nothing very original but still my 2 cents ;)
 
There is a belief that "style" comes with knowledge, which means it is just that, a belief generated by thousands of years of following. We are drilled that to have "style" we must know a number of x and y "rules"...

That belief, however, is but a limit we place upon ourselves. As you start dancing salsa you will realize that most advanced salseros only do as style what they are taught in class, outside of that, very few have their own flair. Those who find this flair, because of years of training, fool themselves into thinking that they were able to "style" the dance because of gained knowledge, which in fact, isn't the source, rather your ability to allow yourself to submerge in the song and bring out that flair within yourself. If you are able to break out of what you are taught and find yourself in the dancefloor, you will have flair, however, if you seek classes to find flair, all you will find is exactly what other people have found; following other people.

Dancing is about art, in salsa that means self expression, which is only limited to being on beat, outside of that, it is how well you manage to contact your inner dancers. Then and only the you will have your own flair. When you think of flair, don't think of the thousands of painters who are extraordinary, but rather the Picasso’s, Van Gogh, Leonardo Da Vinci, etc... Think of those people who took what they knew and became more than they were taught. Think of Einstein lack of formal advanced education and not using it as a limit to what he discovered.

What you refer to as flair, is known to the Latin community as Sabor. Sabor to a Latino is an innate response to self expression that can not be taught through a set of physical rules...

There will always be one person who stands out more than others. It can be because of acrobatic moves, but after a while you will gravitate to the one person who manages to portray every faceless emotion within his body. You will be able to tell, even if you don't speak the language or are deaf, exactly what the song is about, because that person will have such a knock for self "flair/style/sabor" that his body will tell you what is happening to the song.

The music has an aura, if you connect to it with yours, the flair will be there even if you can't stay on beat.

Don't let knowledge of technique guide you into finding fooling yourself, rather listen to inner-self and find what many want, but after 100's of classes, still haven't found... Sabor!

The only time where you aren't worried about sabor, even style, is when you are trying to learn a particular move, after that, if you have sabor, there needn't be a person in the world to teach you style, because it will be bypassed straight into sabor.

Taught style teaches to do as someone else does... Be free, sabor!

It might be a little far fetch at this point in you salsa career, still, try to think of sabor, as grabbing a piece of paper, a pencil and doing anything you want, anything. Some are limited to writting and figures, others will create art, art is nothing but the ability to express what is hidden to the outside world!

Ok, I'm rambling too much!
 
See, whenever I try giving my thoughts to a deep question like this, I feel like such a fake because I don't feel have enough experience/knowledge and not culturally assimilated yet! (not only the latino cultre but salsa as a "way of life")..

anyways, great post as usual boriken! :D
 
Ahhh! Nickie P, you've made my day! :banana:
This is exactly what I'm getting at with the following threads:
:arrow: What a Joy it is to Watch
:arrow: Introducing Fluidity in Your Dance Movement
:arrow: The Music Tells the Story

Now, in developing your own flair or flavor, "for me" it has to do with what I'm "feeling" as I "listen" to the music. Not everyone will interpret the music through their body movements as you would and it takes alot of practice. To be honest, your own "flair" cannot be taught, it is something that uniquely shines through you. Your instructor can give ideas but the flair comes from within. Other's may have their own place of where it comes from but for me it comes from studying the music. Hope this helps. :) [/url]
 
If you don't mind, can you elaborate on how studying music inspires you to develop your own flair? I have a feeling that you mean more than simply knowing the ins and outs of the songs...
 
I second hopelessly_addicted

Peachy, Do you mean knowledge of the music (in a literal sense) or the ability to find the rhythmn within (which is what I'm assuming you mean)?

Like finding the pulse of the music, and sync'ing your pulse with it?!

Also - glad I made someone's day - have been told that I'm waffling when I asked someone this at Salsa last week and one of the other girls I know that dances (not salsa).
 
hopelessly_addicted said:
If you don't mind, can you elaborate on how studying music inspires you to develop your own flair? I have a feeling that you mean more than simply knowing the ins and outs of the songs...
Click to expand...

Actually HA & Nic, I don't have to know the song. :) It could be the first time I've heard it. When I speak of my studying music, what I really mean is "Studying how the music makes me feel". Take for instance "Las Caras Lindas" by Ismael Rivera. When I first heard it, I didn't even know what the song was about until I translated it on my computer BUT what I did notice is that music made me feel as if I was traveling to someplace ideal. Almost like traveling to a special place like, home. So my dancing will interpret that. While others may input some spectacular hand flicks or splits or body snaps, that's not how I would interpret or "feel" it. For me, it would be like a constant flow and a continuously smooth traveling movement. Now, that's more of how I would interpret one song but it is pretty much how I dance most of the time.

On the subject of style and flavor, Boriken (as usual ;) ) besides his brilliant post above, wrote this beautiful piece on Sabor/Flavor/Style that every dancer should read. If it's okay with Boriken, I will post. :D
 
peachexploration said:
hopelessly_addicted said:
If you don't mind, can you elaborate on how studying music inspires you to develop your own flair? I have a feeling that you mean more than simply knowing the ins and outs of the songs...
Click to expand...

Actually HA & Nic, I don't have to know the song. :) It could be the first time I've heard it. When I speak of my studying music, what I really mean is "Studying how the music makes me feel". Take for instance "Las Caras Lindas" by Ismael Rivera. When I first heard it, I didn't even know what the song was about until I translated it on my computer BUT what I did notice is that music made me feel as if I was traveling to someplace ideal. Almost like traveling to a special place like, home. So my dancing will interpret that. While others may input some spectacular hand flicks or splits or body snaps, that's not how I would interpret or "feel" it. For me, it would be like a constant flow and a continuously smooth traveling movement. Now, that's more of how I would interpret one song but it is pretty much how I dance most of the time.

On the subject of style and flavor, Boriken (as usual ;) ) besides his brilliant post above, wrote this beautiful piece on Sabor/Flavor/Style that every dancer should read. If it's okay with Boriken, I will post. :D
Click to expand...

Because of the word "study", I thought perhaps it involved the repetitive listening of the music. But you meant the feeling of the music. Well, I think I'm the same in that I'll move according to the way the music feel for me (when I do shines that is). Because I don't know spanish, I'd be relying purely on my personal instinct on how the texture of the music FEELS, rather than anything else though.

Oh and Nickie, I'd say that most dancers would definately be inspired to move by music for sure! Some songs put me off from dancing while others would force me to be on my feet and dance with or without a partner, regardless how much my feet hurt 8)
 
I agree with peach, that flair for music interpretation is a a feeling that comes when dancing. It is a radiating essence that comes out from each one of us. There need be not one single body movement to see this flair coming from someone...

Peach touched upon it when describing the feeling she had when first listening to Las Caras Lindas... It is an emotional connection stirred by the music. Peach is in tune with her feelings and how they are affected by her surroundings, once able to do this, peach can pick up what the music says by pure feel without a need to know what the lyrics says or having heard the song before.

In fact, when a person is deeply in touch with feelings and the music, changes in a song never heard before are felt way before they happen, they all have nothing to do with technique nor musical knowledge of salsa, rather ability to feel...

When thinking of music and how to dance to it, it is very helpful to think of feelings, for example: Do any of us need to know a foreign language to know we've fallen in love with someone of a foreign language? Do we need to know what the persons says to feel that they are happy? To know what the music says, close your eyes and listen to yourself, do only that, however, the listening is through the music. Feel how every beat of the music arises feelings, those we then use to dance. Once, you begin to feel where the feelings are coming from, concentrate on that location and take deep breaths, soon you'll feel like you are about to burst from feelings... let the body carry the feelings and bang, a flair that can't be physically taught.

Sabor is pretty much a reaction we can all pickup, however, society at large does not teach us how to become in tune with our feelings but rather, how to look to the outside and be lost in exoteric ideals; a material world that is only to be happy with external possessions. Hence, we go on following what society tells us and forget about the innerself and feelings...
 
hopelessly_addicted said:
See, whenever I try giving my thoughts to a deep question like this, I feel like such a fake because I don't feel have enough experience/knowledge and not culturally assimilated yet! (not only the latino cultre but salsa as a "way of life")..

anyways, great post as usual boriken! :D
Click to expand...

Thanks hopelessly_addicted, which by the way, you are in no foreign ground. I read your posts and by them it is easly understood that you are after something else when you dance.

The assimilation to the culture will give a better understanding of what the latin world feels and does. It won't however, give you what you already have, love for the music. Armed with that love, there isn't one thing you can do within salsa that is wrong. Even if you don't know what it means, your posts surely sound like you are already there.... Fake my dear lady, you are not!
 
Thanks Boriken! :D Two great, very detailed and inspiring posts. Dude, what would we do without you! :)

borikensalsero said:
knowledge of the beat aside, this is what I’ve noticed a lot of, "Thinking" "patterns" "nothing to do". That says one thing, while the mind is busy thinking the body can't feel. The mind is blocking the body from feeling. There isn't such a thing as a multi-tasking brain, hence the need for patterns and the such, and the forgotten thought, that physical connection to a partner isn’t needed to feel/become connected to the partner.

The reason we don't know what to do is because we use the brain to tell our body what to do, hence, we need patterns and all technical stuff to salsa, therefore, truly believe we need it first in order to first dance with flava. If that was the case the salsa world would be filled with flava-full dancers, which we can all say, it isn’t. The idea of patterns is generated through the belief of instant gratification, I’ll omit the real achievement and gratification of a long and seldom travel road to be doing what everyone is doing right now, instead of what I will only be doing in time to come.

Keeping the knowledge of the beat in mind, there shouldn’t be a thing we can't groove to which won't fall within the music. If you follow the music you'll find something to do all song long. Listen to your soul not what step the brain thinks you should do. However, do it all within the music and not looking like a chicken with the head cut off. It is about self-disipline.

In my current afro-cuban/salsa class, the teacher first teaches us how to relax the body, how to follow the music, and how it causes us to move, hence the body’s proper movement as per each individual’s body moves. She has very little care on what patterns she'll teach us. We'll go a month and not touch a partner. Then she'll face us, and all of us move with our own flava to the entire song, we move as one, and never get off beat. Why? Because we are following a beat and being asked to do what it makes us feel.

A friend of mine always says that he can teach choreography his grandma and have it look good. Why? Well, he says that following a predetermined pattern is only moving to the music not dancing it. Dancing comes from the soul, not the mind, but to a thinking society such a belief doesn’t come easy to stress.

In my opinion, Mainland salsa (United States) has fallen into the couple dance trap. They really think that dancing salsa is about patterns and holding each other. While it is just that to a point, dancing and spinning aren't the same. Salsa was never a dance trap until the 80s, when salsa took on a more hustle style and individuality stopped being stressed. To a lesser degree in NY city because of the richness salsa has developed since the 70s. I use individuality to mean, dance solo but with a mental/emotional connection to your partner.

Is it a wonder than when dancers get comfortable with themselves they start searching for flava? It isn’t because they are technically advanced and know their stuff. It is because their soul is telling them to look for their inner dancer. So, while we are taught the do this and do that, our soul has been waiting to be let loose. Our mind (ego) needs something to feel good about, that something happens to be patterns and the thought of achievement through more and more complicated patterns. While the ego rules there isn’t telling someone that true fulfillment comes from the soul. However, when we have been taught over and over that there is a chronological way of dancing salsa we undoubtedly follow it. Yet, when we eventually learn the steps we go back to the beginning and say, hey, my body just wants to play with the music but I don’t know how.

Ultimately why great musicians (lavoe, barretto, marc Anthony) are all categorized under passionate and the top dancers are all lifted to “dance Gods” because of their passion. The same tools they use to dance (brain/body) takes second precedence to what their soul tells them to do. Mastery of Technique only comes from experience, where as true greatness from that something inside of you. Pick someone who is the best at something, they’ll all share passion about that given something. We can all be technically great, but who is willing to surpass technique? What is going to separate your technique from the guy next to you? What is going to separate you from the rest? Not that you know more but how you do what you know? While we have been busy following patterns, the great ones have all been busy with feeling their souls, then use that technique to make our moves look a 100 times better.

[DISCLAIMER: Because there is one way, it doesn't mean is the way for everyone]
Click to expand...

And:

borikensalsero said:
The Flava of Salsa
All music follows a pattern; therefore, their dances will follow patterns as well. Everything in this world pretty much follows a pattern. Even the left must go in front of the right or viceversa to be able to walk walk. Even then we don't say, hey we all walk the same because we follow the same patterns, a la flava.

Patterns, style, foot work aren't the same as flava. If that were the case, salseros wouldn't say we need flava. Because a person learned in the street, doesn't mean they have any flava either. Nor would I say that a person who has been listening to salsa all their life has flava. I know cubans, domincans, ricans, colombians, who have never taken a class, dance salsa and couldn't look more lifeless.

By flava I mean, teach someone how to get in touch with his or her inner dancer. Teach them how to move the body not as you would, but as they themselves would. We teach patterns, we teach steps, we teach style, yet many move the same. The good ole' "guess the school" game. Why? Because they were never taught to let loose and move that body as their innerself would. Not me, not he, not she, but YOU. We can spend the rest of our lives dancing and if we can never get in touch with our inner dancers, we'll always be flavaless. The dancer will inevitably always dance from the head, and the head is all about limits, correctness, and rationale.

What good is it to teach my kid to run, if he doesn't even know how to walk? That is what I mean by teaching patterns and steps instead of getting to know our inner dancer. I know how to drive a car I just don't know which is the gas pedal, the clutch or the brake. That is what I mean! What good is it to drive if you don’t know when to use the gas, brake, nor clutch? To some my version would result in bad dancers because they wouldn't be as prominent with steps, or patterns. Yet, those dancers would be on beat, moving to the music as the music calls for, as one, and with personal styles (flava), which they developed from their innerself, yet all look different doing the same movements and dancing to the same songs. How would their lead be? Going to a school and learning steps doesn't equal to a good lead, nor great followers. That comes from experience, so with experience these guys will be as good as the next. We aren't robots, we are all different, so shouldn’t we all display the true US on the dancefloor?

To me salsa dancers have to be strong solo dancers, this isn't tango. This is salsa, salsa is about the mating ritual, making each other know that you two are one even when you are apart. Not by control but by movement, call and response, catering to each other's needs. When you come together it is to bring dancers for the physical part of foreplay. Not the wam bam thank you ma'am thing. It is about LOVE & PASSION Salsa isn't about girls, it isn't about who is looking at you, it isn't about patterns/moves, it isn't about partying, it isn’t stepping. It is about LOVE, it is a lifestyle where salsa is your world and your mate the subject of all interactions within that world and its love. And that is where flava comes in. I wanna see your true self out there. Not a short version of your instructor. I wanna see you. I don't want to see how many patterns you can pull-off in a 3 minute song. I don't want to see how close you can get to that hottie in the short skirt. I don't want to see how many lucky nights you get in a week. I don't want to see how much you know. I don’t want to see who is looking at you. I wanna see you and her. I want to see you two become one and display the love salseros share as it makes you display it. It is a lifestyle, a lifestyle, it is nothing less... The many that never achieve that understanding speak of LIKING, speak of girls, speak of the same, those who do, speak of soul/flava and love.

My views are from a different perspective and why I written what I have...
Click to expand...
 
borikenSalsero said:
Thanks hopelessly_addicted, which by the way, you are in no foreign ground. I read your posts and by them it is easly understood that you are after something else when you dance.

The assimilation to the culture will give a better understanding of what the latin world feels and does. It won't however, give you what you already have, love for the music. Armed with that love, there isn't one thing you can do within salsa that is wrong. Even if you don't know what it means, your posts surely sound like you are already there.... Fake my dear lady, you are not!
Click to expand...

You make be blush boriken! :oops: because although I know that I'm in it for a long long time, I know that I'm a baby in terms of my experience in salsa so far.

In love, I am for the salsa music and the dance though! I just wanna soak up as much knowledge as possible when it comes to salsa. Wanna anything that's to do with it regardless the styles.

What a great way to finish a day for me :) It's almost 3am now. Time to go to bed.

Thanks for digging up those jewels Peache!
 
Thank you, Boriken, I am very much impressed by your words. You express yourself so perfectly. I am a new member in this forum and I really enjoyed reading your posts.
 
Hi Sea-born! Welcome to Salsa forums!!

I'm only new here too - and feel like i'm rather settled already!

As for boriken's posts - talk about inspiration for the soul!
 
Nickie p,

There are already some excellent posts about feeling the music and expressing yourself, so I thought I'd pick up on something else mentioned in your OP.

Nickie p said:
I was watching some of the more advanced people after the class last week and one girl in particular was dancing (she's been dancing for 3 years and I think she's really good). What amazed me - is that although she was obviously being "led" in the dance she was able to know the moves well enough to add her own "flair" to her side of the moves.
Click to expand...

When you start learning salsa (or any partner dance) for the first time, leading and following is a new concept and not easy to get used to. It's hard enough for a beginner follower to simply follow the lead without backleading or anticipating, so you have no time to add your own mark to the dance.

As you continue taking classes to learn the fundamental skills and go out dancing to gain dancefloor experience, you begin to discover that there is room for the follower to add her own style at the same time as following the lead. Actually, what you discover is that these things *do not* happen "at the same time". One of the important things we (followers) learn through experience and tuition is when we can style and when we can't. Styling must not interfere with the lead, so you only have narrow "windows" through which you can add your own flair to your moves. But this does not mean you need to know the move/pattern you are being put through in order to know when to style. Experience tells you on which beats -- and by which part of the body -- you are being led (therefore you must follow) and when/where you have the freedom to do your own thing. Once you know *when* you can style, *how* you do it is up to you -- you can copy what other dancers are doing, you can take styling classes, you can watch videos to pick things up, and you can experiment with your own unique ways of expressing yourself and expressing the music through your body. That's when the fun starts.
 
Sea-born said:
Thank you, Boriken, I am very much impressed by your words. You express yourself so perfectly. I am a new member in this forum and I really enjoyed reading your posts.
Click to expand...
Hi Sea-born! Welcome to Salsa Forums! Happy to have you here. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top