Salseros - How can we tell you without offending?

[Claire_Brummell]

Hi Everyone

I have a question to which I'm sure there probably isn't a 'right answer'.

There is a lot of controversy over refusal of dances etc, but something I feel that is as much if not more of an issue is being a salsera, how can you tell the salsero if he is (1) Off time (2) Hurting you (3) being too rough (4) that you don't understand the lead (5) that you're getting the lead too late etc etc

...and more importantly should you tell them?!

I know my feelings on this, but I wanted to know from the leads here how they feel (and no, I don't want the text book "of course you should" - I would like to think about how you would feel if someone said it to you and how you would react)

Is it better not to say and just politely refuse the dance (with a standard excuse) or to try and explain?

A lot of people where I dance don't realise that I teach (because I teach in another town) and I feel don't respect me enough to listen (and to be honest I know that this would have an effect on how much they would take what I say on board...) and so I would be surprised if they would listen to my opinion.

Also, I can follow someone who isn't leading on beat and who is being too rough - in your opinion should I do this? Or should I stop the dance?

Again, I have my opinions on this - as I'm sure many other Salseras do, but I would be interested in your opinions...

Thanks!

Claire

[DeeplyDippy]

Very dangerous ground :D

I'm very touchy normally (read: insecure) and would hate to be told anything like this EXCEPT from someone I'd been dancing with for years.

If a stranger said something. I'd be really miffed.

(Honesty - I must be ill)

[Claire_Brummell]

Very dangerous ground :D

I'm very touchy normally (read: insecure) and would hate to be told anything like this EXCEPT from someone I'd been dancing with for years.

If a stranger said something. I'd be really miffed.

(Honesty - I must be ill)

I'm well aware of that - hence the reason for the question!! :D

This is what I wanted - people's honest opinions - so, in this circumstance would you rather someone just made excuses and didn't dance with you, rather than say something to you?

[Miami Rueda dancer]

ancient chinese man once said "Knowledge is when you don't know something and you admit that you don't". Guys won't be offended if they realize what they are doing is wrong :)

[pr]

Please tell me if I'm doing something wrong again and again (not only doing it wrong ones), but do it in a humble and nice way. I would like to know if I'm doing something wrong, because if I don't know that I'm doing something wrong, then I can't correct it. I don't want to hear about everything that is wrong at the same time. Therefore only tell about the most "important" thing to work on. With this I don't mean that one shall try to find something that is wrong with ones partner's technique. I would not like to be judged for my dancing when I am out dancing, but if I do something wrong again and again then I would like to know... If you are a beginner or someone that is struggling with your own (big) shortcomings, then I would probably not want to hear any corrections...

I have seen people (this time for another dance than salsa) that were dancing not very good (IMHO), but they were thinking that they were dancing like stars. I felt sorry for them. Not because they didn't dance very good, but because they thought they were dancing like starts when they were not. I wish someone had told them what to work on in an early state... I think they would be really sad if they later on would find out how it looks when they dance... Probably they would quit? :?: I hope you are not getting me wrong, because I'm not saying that I am a star myself... I only think that this is a sad story that I don't want to experience myself and I hope no one else will...

[DeeplyDippy]

so, in this circumstance would you rather someone just made excuses and didn't dance with you, rather than say something to you?

Honestly ...

I'm not sure I would handle criticism from someone I didn't know at all well. Maybe, I'd rather the lady didn't dance with me.

There's also an issue of people who don't do lessons. How ever do they try partners out ?

[pr]

Welcome to SF DeeplyDippy! :D

[Claire_Brummell]

Thanks for the input guys - was just interested in different opinions on the subject.

It's a question of looking at each person differently by the looks of it - which is pretty much how I deal with it currently :D

[hopelessly_addicted]

Other than what others have said above, I've got one more to add... being humble when you give an advise is important!

Ok there's this local instructor who always gives 1-2 comment while dancing with me. Last friday night, she commented what I should do like every other CBL! man... it's alright though. I know her to be like that so I don't take it personal... So even if you were an instructor and know what the person is doing is so wrong, maintaining the humbleness would be great.

So, Clair, do you lead? :) If so, and if you ever do come down to Melbourne, I'd LOVE to be led by you.. and FYI, I take advises very well ;)

[Claire_Brummell]

I agree totally - humbleness is SO important...to reduce the appearance of ego - which is NEVER where any of my comments come from - it's from I desire to help others!

And yes, I do lead - not in Melbourne yet - but I'm thinking about Australia as a possible location for one of our dance holidays in the future so who knows... ;) :D

(and I take any advice offered too!! It's a two way thing in my book!)

[Wicked Salsero]

However good you are and your partner is not, my advice is that if you are not in a professional dance instructor relationship, for example you are the teacher and your partner is the student, don’t even bother. Let him find out on his own (unless he is doing something really stupid like not keeping the safety measures, yanking etc), or by his teacher or maybe by avoiding him, you may give him some cues about he is doing something wrong. He will be offended, and may not do it out of stubbornness, and he will feel that he is judged whenever he goes on the dance floor. That’s my humble opinion, which I believe works for both genders. If you really, really have to tell him, do it in a nice way, for example when I dance with a woman and I feel the need to correct her, I tell her, “I know you like doing this when you dance, but can you do this differently when we dance together, because I like it this way ? For me? I would really appreciate it”, and putting a nice smile on my face :) Chances are she will still do it with her next partner.

You also mentioned that you don’t feel enough respected. I’ll tell you one thing Claire, the way I see it. There is a really really really fine line between a dancer and a teacher. Because someone is teaching doesn’t mean he’s good :) If you want to be taken seriously you have to prove yourself in the world of salsa, unfortunately.

Hope this helps

:)

[peachexploration]

Okay, here is my 1.5 cents.

As a general rule, you should not correct anyone unless you're in class and an instructor OR if someone "asks" for your advice. In a social setting, I feel it should not be done at all unless your are asked. So are you at the risk of dancing with very bad dancers quite a bit? In a word, YES! Both leads and follows.

Now, as WS mentioned above, there are times when you just have to say something. I suggest both leads and follows do it with respect and kindness. Saying "You Suck!" (Although, that's what you really want to say sometimes. :lol: ;) ) Is totally not cool. Why? The same bad dancer could be Salsa's next star, a teacher, or limit dances and encourage others to limit dances with you or just may be a better dancer than you and you are the one with the problem. I've definitely seen this alot: Lead and/or Follows, in their minds, are EXPERTS just because they've had 2 classes!!!. :roll: :? :shock: Will correct every step you make and can't even do the basic. :?

Having said that, a humble EGO goes a long way and if a dancer is focused on becoming a better dancer, it won't bother them and they won't take it personally. But in the real world, no one likes to be corrected really and although most of us here wouldn't mind it if it's done with tact, as a general rule, unless you're in class and an instructor, have a good relationship with someone (ie, friends, etc.), they actually ask you for your advice or in an extremely unavoidable situation (potential arm breakage), it's just best not to I feel.

Now, often times there is a work around. WS uses a good example:
....... “I know you like doing this when you dance, but can you do this differently when we dance together, because I like it this way ? For me? I would really appreciate it”, and putting a nice smile on my face :) ....
I would love it if someone took this approach. I'm willing to try it your way even though the real reason may be that I'm doing something wrong. If you put in a pleasant "Let's try something new." concept, about 90% of the time, you'll get a positive response.

[funseeker321]

....... “I know you like doing this when you dance, but can you do this differently when we dance together, because I like it this way ? For me? I would really appreciate it”, and putting a nice smile on my face ....

as a newbie I'd prefer if someone said, "would you like to see another way to do that? " or "maybe I can show you an easier way to do that move..."

[peachexploration]

I found out yesterday that it's just better not to suggest anything to any lead EVEN if he asks. This guy yesterday, although he is a total sweetheart, got quite offended after I told him he was off beat. BUT he asked me if he was? I said yes. He asked how? And I proceeded to tell him but then he got argumentative. At that point, I stopped and said "Let's just dance". He wanted to argue and I refused to. Luckily, the partner session of the class started and of course, he avoided me. I felt awful. :( Not because he avoided me, don't care about that, but because I saw the most hurtful look on his face. :( I didn't realize he was that sensitive. Later, during the partner work session, he had to come to me. There was no getting around it so I did my best to make him smile but I refuse to make any suggestions, period. He felt better and even wanted to practice after class. The kicker is, the instructor immediately saw the problem and came over to correct him. My point? It's best to leave it up to or direct a fellow student to the teacher. EVEN if they ask. 8)

[Wicked Salsero]

good tip :)