Prepping on the 4?

[peachexploration]

There is a styling preference that I'm trying to master when it comes to double spins. For some reason when I begin the prep for the spin on the 4 beat, the spin seems slow and I'm not getting the momentum I need. Leads, does your prep begin at the 4 for the follows to spin or way before? Don't have a lead to practice with right now. :( (Salsa on1)

[squirrel]

Well, what prep do you use?

There's Susana Montero's prep (she shows it on one of her DVDs) when you prep on 3 (meaning the right foot is placed "open" and you also open with your whole body, "stealing" part of the spin... then spin on 5 and 7).

There's also Edie's prep... she explains it in her Ladies' Styling 2: step on 1, hold the 2 and place left foot in front of right foot on 3, then spin to the right (for ladies). This one is more difficult, at least for me.

When I'm doing doubles I think I prep on 3, no matter what style I use. I can be mislead and start late, but i usually compensate using my shoulders and elbow kicking (see Edie's Spins tape)

[tj]

With Follows that are working on their double spins, I'll definitely give a big obvious prep on 3, initiating the spin a little before the 5.

[lucretia]

Hi!

I do it on three and I do the Susan Montera prep when I can choose.

There's also Edie's prep... she explains it in her Ladies' Styling 2: step on 1, hold the 2 and place left foot in front of right foot on 3, then spin to the right (for ladies). This one is more difficult, at least for me.

I have other problems with this kind of prep. Where do you put you feet left down for extra speed on the second spin? In the same position as the take off (on three) with legs crossed again or in the position where it is when you do a Susan Montera spin? (only 180 degrees after the take off in Edies case)

We are learning a pattern where I need to use the Edie's prep. My teacher just performs the spin....no explaination so far....

/Luc

[peachexploration]

Okay, thanks guys!! From your posts I think I'm getting into the spin too late it seems. :?

[Guarachero]

No one is ever too late.

You can do several spins relatively easy. Your initial spin is propelled by one foot out side and moving it around you.

At the end of the first, you step your axle foot out (just to keep balance) and tap with the note. That’ll help get back on your axis. And you do the same over and over. Your spins aren’t just spins like a toddler in a park, but well-calculated moves; always within the rhythm (it looks beautiful and elegant). The same is done to either direction: to the left, your left foot is the traveler and your right is the axle, and vice versa.

For women it is easier: the man guides her right arm and spins her. All she has to do is trust him, use her traveler as the propeller and her axle stays in place. And if the man has some level of mastery, he will propel her by guiding her right arm, while she spins like a yoyo. He must make sure to have her back in his space to keep her from flying across the room or running into some body. (lol).

Easy? Now, try it.

Guarachero

[peachexploration]

......Easy? Now, try it....

I know how to spin, Guarachero but my question was about what beat to prep on. More of a styling question than anything. Thanks for the info though. :)

[MacMoto]

Prepping on the 4 isn't too late for a double. Normal basic step for 1-2-3, prep on the 4, and you can still spin on the 5 and the 7.

To add more revolutions, you need to start prepping earlier. My teachers recommend followers to get into the habit of prepping early even for doubles, just so you get used to the timing. I've been taught the "1-2 prep" and "prep on 3" (timing: on1).

1-2 prep: Take a very small back step (or even stepping in place) on the 1, and put the left foot in front of the right on the 2, twisting the body (shoulders) to the left ready for spinning. Many LA style teachers teach this.

Prep on 3: Normal basic step on the 1-2, then "&3" to do the "right foot back to the home position" and "place the left foot in front of the right/coil the body". I've been told that this is similar to the prep taught in ET on2.

The advantage of the 1-2 prep is that you can start spinning on the 3, so you can pack more spins in a measure. When you prep on 3, you can only start spinning from the 4. On the other hand, prepping on 3 means you are starting the measure with a normal basic, which feels more natural (to me anyway). Also, if you do the 1-2 prep and then the leader *doesn't* spin you, there's a long pause before your forward step on the 5 (which I suppose you can use for styling).

[peachexploration]

Okay, that makes sense Mac. The more spins you do, the earlier you must prep. And yes, I was only speaking of a double spin. The styling issue comes in to play with sort of a body shift to the left before the actual spin to the right. Will look for a clip and post later. Thanks. :D

[Miami Rueda dancer]

I agree with the title... i prep it on the 4

[Guarachero]

Peach Expl:

If you you know how to spin, timing and #s are irrelevant. You start spinning at any beat. You determine where to start.

Remember that Salsa is all about creativity. Some people find difficult to spin in Chá, yet they do well in Casino. Others have difficulties spinning in Rumba, while doing excellently in Yambú.

You just pick the beat where you want to depart.

Other than that, spinning is all about style and how much your body interprets the music. Techniques of 1234 is for beginners, rhythm is for professionals.

Guarachero

[MacMoto]

Now I'm confused -- spinning in Yambu? :shock:
And I thought Yambu was a type of Rumba? :?

[vin]

Hi Peach I hesitated to respond to this because I am not really sure when I prep for on1. For on2 what I have been taught to do is prep on 5,6,7 and then spin the girl on 1,2,3.

[Guarachero]

¡LOL!

Right, Yambú is a Rumba style. The spins are done by kicking one foot out front and making a turn. The dancer stops while moving the shoulders with the beat and goes for it. Only one spin at a time. It is mostly 180 degree for those who are not advanced.

If you want to see how it's done, Los Muñequitos de Matanzas have a video wherein two little kids (9 or 10 of age) perform the spins.

And it is precisely in Yambú and Columbia when the spins can be done. Rumba has too much of a marked beating. Yambú has such a fast percussion that it is almost impossible to do with your feet every beat the bongos, the batá, the tumba, and the gangarria give you.

Here are various Cubans that can Rumba, but so far whenever a Yambú is played, they step aside. And believe me, not every Cuban knows how to Yambú.

Please don’t be confused. I would never mislead any body. I grew up between three of most Rumbero barrios: Cárdenas in Matanzas, Pogolotti and Jacomino in Havana.

Thanks for loving Salsa. I really feel elated :oops: to see our culture traveling so far from Cuba. And I further appreciate this forum.

Guarachero

[Guarachero]

Hi Peach I hesitated to respond to this because I am not really sure when I prep for on1. For on2 what I have been taught to do is prep on 5,6,7 and then spin the girl on 1,2,3.

Vin:

I do the spins at any time during the dance. Depending on the type of music, I feel more comfortable if the music is highly charged with “sasón.” If you calculate that you’ll spin during a fast or even tone of the music and end your spins exactly at a specific beat, you’ll look the best.

You want to start your spins when you feel comfortable, not when others do. I am sure you know that Salsa is but an individualized dance.

I don’t know, but I can do my spins at will as long as I stay with the beat.

Guarachero

[peachexploration]

Peach Expl:

If you you know how to spin, timing and #s are irrelevant. You start spinning at any beat. You determine where to start. I'm aware of that as well, Guarachero. The key in this thread is "There is a styling preference that I'm trying to master when it comes to double spins". :roll:

[vin]

Guarachero,
Yes you can spin whenever you want, the question for the guys was
"WHEN DO WE LEAD THE PREPS".

You see not everyone is that developed as a dancer. I am still learning so right now I stick with what I know I can lead that will feel comfortable for most of the women I dance with.

I know women that can do 10 spins off of no prep and I know women who need a prep to do 1. If i am dancing with a woman that needs a prep, what I described before is what I do. If I were to do something else it would not be led clearly and so my partner would have trouble following it. When I am more developed I will prep the spins differently.

I agree that salsa is an individualized dance, but I liken it to poetry.

When composing his poem a poet is allowed certain "artistic license" to stray away from the rules of grammar. However if the words strung together make no sense then it will no longer be appreciated by others.

The same with dancing, of course you are allowed an artistic license, but before you can individualive your dancing you have to get used to the framework and get a sense of how you can break out of that framework. Not all of us had the opportunity to have salsa around us when we were growing up and so we are still adjusting to that framework.

[peachexploration]

Vin, you rock!!!! :notworthy: I couldn't have said it any better. :notworthy:

[Guarachero]

Vin:

That's deep!

But I don't know how to explain. You see? I was at a music school and was trown out do to my lack of talent. But I went to a dance competition and I made it well.

I'm just a dancer who spins at will and falls down to beat. There are certain beats that signal you what's next and there are certain beats that turn you lose, I don't know, but they are there.

I just dance and spin with the music. And if you want to get more technical than that, I just hush up and listen to learn. (LOL).

Be gentle, body. I'm listening.

Guarachero

[MacMoto]

I'm just a dancer who spins at will and falls down to beat. There are certain beats that signal you what's next and there are certain beats that turn you lose, I don't know, but they are there.

I just dance and spin with the music. And if you want to get more technical than that, I just hush up and listen to learn. (LOL).

Yes Guarachero, but Peach's original question was about followers spins led by the leader, not free spinning, so the timing issue is not just for the person who spins (follower) but for the person leading the spins.

When you spin women, do you also "spin them at will", or do you do it on a certain beat? How do you signal to the follower that you are about to spin her? Are all followers able to follow your signal/lead? Are there any particular things you do to make sure they can follow your lead?

I ask this because I can spin double, triple or more with some leaders, but with others I struggle to complete even a double.

[vin]

Yea Guarachero,
I think in this particular post the desire was to get more technical than what you described.

[Guarachero]

Yes. I guess you are up. Because I cannot demonstrate it with words, I must show you. When I figure out how to connect my videos in the computer, I'll show you.

The lead determines the spins, when, how..., I don't know. I'm just a dancer not a timer nor a musician. Also, I don't dance to timing nor 1234, I just dance.

I don't doubt that there is a technique to cut sugar cane; I cannot explain that technique, but I'm sure I can cut sugar cane with ease.

Guarachero

[salsaseb]

Depending on how your partner leads, you may :
a) not be able to prep at all
b) prep on 4 (if not 5)
c) prep on 3
d) prep on 1/2
(this is counting for dancing ON 1)

Basic leading rule: the earlier the lead, the lighter the lead, and the more smooth a move is.

Beginners and rough leaders often have a 1-3 spin signal (push on 1, raise hand on 3, spin girl like crazy after 3, usually around 5)

The smoothest leaders have a technique (derived from on2, I think) which can be called foot-matching. Basically, the lead swings in a gentle pendulum movement that matches the foot on which your weight is (left 0n 1, right on 2, left on 3... for leaders, opposite for followers)
Setting up a spin is the simple matter of exaggerating the swing, either on the 7 of the previous basic, or on the 1 just before the spin.
Either way, the prep is on the 2 beat, and by 3 the spin has started. Conventionally, the first spin ENDS on 5.

Sorry to go into such detail, but I'll repeat what I said at the beginning of this post. The spinning should match the leading. As a leader, I dislike it when my partner either:
a) tries to slip in an extra spin, because she thinks there's enough time for it.
or
b) rely on me to push her around the dance floor and provide 100% of the energy required for her spins.

[peachexploration]

....Sorry to go into such detail......
No, I like it! I like it! The more you guys write, the clearer it becomes. This is my second week of On2 classes and this thread is helping. Keep it coming! :banana:

....Setting up a spin is the simple matter of exaggerating the swing, either on the 7 of the previous basic, or on the 1 just before the spin. ......This is what I noticed last week with one of the leads in class and it was easier for me to get into the spin. Right before the 1 is a little difficult for me. Maybe a balance thing.....Still working on it.... :D

[salsaseb]

But, actually, the same applies to on2.
The timing is obviously different, since the initial signal is a slightly exaggerated swing on 5, sharp left on 6, wide arc into a raised hand on 7.

this basically leads the setup for the spin. Teachers disagree on exactly which beat to start spinning. Most say to spin on the 1. However, theory is that as soon as the follower has prepped, she is ready to spin, so she may actually spin as early as the 8.
In practice, most of the great 'spinners' (we're talking about leaders - such as Juan Matos or Thomas Guerrero) start spinning their partner as soon as she's ready, on 8.

[peachexploration]

Okay, I gotcha Salsaeb. Cool. 8) Thanks! :D

[Cesario]

Yes. I guess you are up. Because I cannot demonstrate it with words, I must show you. When I figure out how to connect my videos in the computer, I'll show you.

The lead determines the spins, when, how..., I don't know. I'm just a dancer not a timer nor a musician. Also, I don't dance to timing nor 1234, I just dance.

I don't doubt that there is a technique to cut sugar cane; I cannot explain that technique, but I'm sure I can cut sugar cane with ease.

Guarachero


I am more inclined to dance the same way rather than focusing on technique and blah, blah, blah, but i have found that learning to appreciate the technique and counts involved have help me progress overall. I still consider myself a "dancer" who feels the music and lets the music tell me what to do, but it does help to have some foundation of technique from which to draw upon. I still get a kick out of so called Ballroom dancers who Mambo with such robotic precision, yet fail to convey any real substance in the dance.

[jayzen]

Don't know if this helps but had the privilege of attending a spins workshop by Ahtoy of Santo Rico recently at the Malaysian Salsa Fest.
I distinctly remember that she told the ladies that for a standard led turn, the ladies start turning on 1 (note, timing given is for the On2 style). Ladies prep on the 6,7. Side note, man, she's a great teacher and a gorgeous dancer! :D

If the turn is one that is led from a layout (er, the exact pattern escapes me), the lady turns on 3.

I also kinda remembered Tomas Guerro reinforcing these statements in the partnerwork class taught later that same day.

However, point to note, this is the Santo Rico spins technique cos other instructors do it differently.

If I'm not mistaken, Super Mario and Jaime Jhesus teach the other method where, if dancing on1, the guys prep the girls on 4, and turn her on 5,6,7 if they are doing triples. Something to that effect.


jayzen