The First Salsa Music

[David]

I know there is somewhat of a grey area between Mambo and Salsa, but I was wondering which music is considered to be some of the first Salsa. For example, what are some of the groups and songs that define the beginning of Salsa?

[peachexploration]

For modern salsa so to speak, I would say probably around the early 70s in New York. Ignited by Fania Records, Johnny Pacheco, Willie Colón and Héctor Lavoe and many others. Boriken is a better authority on this but that would be my thought. Boriken? Dude? Are you out there? :lol:

[peachexploration]

Any other thoughts on this one? Anyone? :)

[Guarachero]

According to Robertico Torres, former singer of Sonora Matancera, the first time the expression "salsa" was applied to the danceable music was in the late 1940s when Ignacio Piñeiro composed "Echale salsita," dedicated to the African (Congo) who sold butifarras in Carretera Central in Matanzas. At the same time, Rosendo Rosel, composer and writer for CMQ in Havana, attests that "Bigote" Escalona used to introduce Soneros and Guaracheros with the expression: this following band plays with salsa." Then Tito Puente in New York used the same expression.

Remember that "Echale salsita" has a corus refrain:

¡Saaaallsa!

Guarachero

[sweetmoya]

According to Robertico Torres, former singer of Sonora Matancera, the first time the expression "salsa" was applied to the danceable music was in the late 1940s when Ignacio Piñeiro composed "Echale salsita," dedicated to the African (Congo) who sold butifarras in Carretera Central in Matanzas. At the same time, Rosendo Rosel, composer and writer for CMQ in Havana, attests that "Bigote" Escalona used to introduce Soneros and Guaracheros with the expression: this following band plays with salsa." Then Tito Puente in New York used the same expression.

Remember that "Echale salsita" has a corus refrain:

¡Saaaallsa!

Guarachero

That is very interesting.

[jhb]

According to Robertico Torres, former singer of Sonora Matancera, the first time the expression "salsa" was applied to the danceable music was in the late 1940s when Ignacio Piñeiro composed "Echale salsita," dedicated to the African (Congo) who sold butifarras in Carretera Central in Matanzas. At the same time, Rosendo Rosel, composer and writer for CMQ in Havana, attests that "Bigote" Escalona used to introduce Soneros and Guaracheros with the expression: this following band plays with salsa." Then Tito Puente in New York used the same expression.

Remember that "Echale salsita" has a corus refrain:

¡Saaaallsa!

Guarachero

Echale Salsita came out in 1932. And the use of the word Salsa there wasn't an attempt to name the music, and the song is not a Salsa at all. It is a septeto-style Son. Ignacio was just saying "throw a little sauce on it", ie, spice it up. And we have no evidence that it was the first use of the word Salsa in that sense.

The word Salsa to describe music as being hot, or soulful, was long-established by the time the music we know now as Salsa immerged in New York in the late 60s, early 70s, but that music wasn't "Salsa", as in, fitting the genre we now know as Salsa. Basically, we can consider that use of the word as related but not the same as how we use it now.

As to the first Salsa, I don't think that can really be answered. There wasn't a single moment where New York afro-Cuban music turned into Salsa. It was a long evolution through the 60s.

[peachexploration]

Hi JHB! :) Good to "see" you. It's been a couple of months. :)

[David]

I gathered a little more information from the book "Musica!" by Sue Stewart. She started out by saying that kitchen terms were already well established in Jazz (such as "cooking" and "tasty"). There seem to be many theories about the origin of the term, but there was song performed by the Cuban son group Sexteto Habanero, called "Echale salsita", which means "out sauce on it". Also, in the forties and fifties, Cuban superstar Beny More signed off his show with the catchy phrase, "Hola, Salsa" ("Hey Sauce").

In more modern times, Venezuelan DJ Danilo Phidiad Escalona, called his show, La Hora del sabor, las salsa y el bembe, which translates to "the hour of flavor, spiciness and liturgy".

By the late 70's the word salsa came to be synonymous with the sound of Latin New York, and Fania records played a defining role in this. Peurto Rican New Yorker Izzy Sanabria was both the designer of many of their distinctive and brilliant album covers, and also the MC to the Fania All Stars. Throughout their shows he would exclaim, "Salsa!". He also had a magazine called "Sanabria" where the terms was used extensively to describe the music covered therein.

[Guarachero]

According to Robertico Torres, former singer of Sonora Matancera, the first time the expression "salsa" was applied to the danceable music was in the late 1940s when Ignacio Piñeiro composed "Echale salsita," dedicated to the African (Congo) who sold butifarras in Carretera Central in Matanzas. At the same time, Rosendo Rosel, composer and writer for CMQ in Havana, attests that "Bigote" Escalona used to introduce Soneros and Guaracheros with the expression: this following band plays with salsa." Then Tito Puente in New York used the same expression.

Remember that "Echale salsita" has a corus refrain:

¡Saaaallsa!

Guarachero

Echale Salsita came out in 1932. And the use of the word Salsa there wasn't an attempt to name the music, and the song is not a Salsa at all. It is a septeto-style Son. Ignacio was just saying "throw a little sauce on it", ie, spice it up. And we have no evidence that it was the first use of the word Salsa in that sense.

The word Salsa to describe music as being hot, or soulful, was long-established by the time the music we know now as Salsa immerged in New York in the late 60s, early 70s, but that music wasn't "Salsa", as in, fitting the genre we now know as Salsa. Basically, we can consider that use of the word as related but not the same as how we use it now.

As to the first Salsa, I don't think that can really be answered. There wasn't a single moment where New York afro-Cuban music turned into Salsa. It was a long evolution through the 60s.

That's the the origin of the name Salsa (Casino actually). And you can take that to the bank. And you're right, 1930s may have been the time for "Échale salsita" (although I still have doubts), but the first time "Salsa" was referred to fast Son was 1950s CMQ radio by Bigote Escalona. Tito Puente in New York may have internationalized it, but its birthplace was Cuba. Let's give credit to whomever deserves it and avoid passion of titleship stand in the way of history. :rocker:

[Rey de la Pista]

Then Tito Puente in New York used the same expression.

actually tito puente always used to say that he never played salsa. they would ask tito about salsa and he would say "salsa, i don't play no salsa..i play mambo." and it is true, tito puente played mambo.

[Rey de la Pista]

As to the first Salsa, I don't think that can really be answered. There wasn't a single moment where New York afro-Cuban music turned into Salsa. It was a long evolution through the 60s.

that is a good way of putting it. salsa came about through an evolution that occurred in the 1960s. (the only thing that i would add is that it wasn't just afro-cuban music or rhythms.) the whole thing that is difficult about pinpointing the birth of salsa is that salsa was created before it was named. salsa was going on in puerto rico before the term itself or atleast the identification of the music under the term "salsa" occurred.

[Rey de la Pista]

That's the the origin of the name Salsa (Casino actually). And you can take that to the bank. And you're right, 1930s may have been the time for "Échale salsita" (although I still have doubts), but the first time "Salsa" was referred to fast Son was 1950s CMQ radio by Bigote Escalona. Tito Puente in New York may have internationalized it, but its birthplace was Cuba. Let's give credit to whomever deserves it and avoid passion of titleship stand in the way of history. :rocker:

but salsa is more than just "fast son." cuba didn't do salsa. yes, it did various rhythms that one finds in salsa. but salsa is the mixture of various rhythms and elements. salsa is: son, guaguanco, rumba, bomba, plena, guajiro, jibaro all mixed up.
to refer to it as merely fast son and say that cuba is the birthplace is to stand in the way of history.

[Guarachero]

That's the the origin of the name Salsa (Casino actually). And you can take that to the bank. And you're right, 1930s may have been the time for "Échale salsita" (although I still have doubts), but the first time "Salsa" was referred to fast Son was 1950s CMQ radio by Bigote Escalona. Tito Puente in New York may have internationalized it, but its birthplace was Cuba. Let's give credit to whomever deserves it and avoid passion of titleship stand in the way of history. :rocker:

but salsa is more than just "fast son." cuba didn't do salsa. yes, it did various rhythms that one finds in salsa. but salsa is the mixture of various rhythms and elements. salsa is: son, guaguanco, rumba, bomba, plena, guajiro, jibaro all mixed up.
to refer to it as merely fast son and say that cuba is the birthplace is to stand in the way of history.

Rey de la Pista:

When Guarachas (descargas) took a place in Cuba, those were its ingredients. I agree, but when that took place no other Latin rhythm were in it. Jibaro, Bomba, and all others enriched it, yes :cheers: And we all are pleased of that. But that only happened after it was exported to New York. Of course, no other Latinos are more credited for instantly accepting it and enriching it than Portorricans. We all know that :cheers:

I really hope that you're not one of those who believe Salsa is a New York product. Salsa became the international name for Casino and the first referrences to it can be traced back to the 30s and mid 50s in CMQ Radio by "Bigote" Escalona.

Now, we can argue for ever and never come to a conclusion. And whether other Latin American countries want it or not, Cuba holds authorship of Salsa. That is as factual as Narciso Lopez designing of our tween sister flags.

Us Latinos should not try to change history based on our nationalistic passions. Knowin how to Salsa is different that knowing about its history. :roll:

[peachexploration]

Okay, good feedback on this thread but lets get this one back on track. :D

Original Thread Topic:
I know there is somewhat of a grey area between Mambo and Salsa, but I was wondering which music is considered to be some of the first Salsa. For example, what are some of the groups and songs that define the beginning of Salsa?

Main question: What are some groups and songs that define the beginning of Salsa?

[Guarachero]

If I remember correctly, there were various groups that started this genre simultaneously. Sonora Matancera when Celia Cruz went with them in the era of Guaracha. Rumba Habana, Riverside. But if we look a Cougar, he too influenced its insertion in US.

The grey area becomes wider when Chano Poso in New York held several concerts with Cuban sounds.

Cuban born Jamaican Lewis Harris made some attempts during the 50s. Later Pio Leyva.

As most popular rhythms, Casino is a music born out of a fashion for changes and improvements. To me, even Aragón with its Danzón Chás influenced it.

[Rey de la Pista]

That's the the origin of the name Salsa (Casino actually). And you can take that to the bank. And you're right, 1930s may have been the time for "Échale salsita" (although I still have doubts), but the first time "Salsa" was referred to fast Son was 1950s CMQ radio by Bigote Escalona. Tito Puente in New York may have internationalized it, but its birthplace was Cuba. Let's give credit to whomever deserves it and avoid passion of titleship stand in the way of history. :rocker:

but salsa is more than just "fast son." cuba didn't do salsa. yes, it did various rhythms that one finds in salsa. but salsa is the mixture of various rhythms and elements. salsa is: son, guaguanco, rumba, bomba, plena, guajiro, jibaro all mixed up.
to refer to it as merely fast son and say that cuba is the birthplace is to stand in the way of history.

Rey de la Pista:

When Guarachas (descargas) took a place in Cuba, those were its ingredients. I agree, but when that took place no other Latin rhythm were in it. Jibaro, Bomba, and all others enriched it, yes :cheers: And we all are pleased of that. But that only happened after it was exported to New York. Of course, no other Latinos are more credited for instantly accepting it and enriching it than Portorricans. We all know that :cheers:

I really hope that you're not one of those who believe Salsa is a New York product. Salsa became the international name for Casino and the first referrences to it can be traced back to the 30s and mid 50s in CMQ Radio by "Bigote" Escalona.

Now, we can argue for ever and never come to a conclusion. And whether other Latin American countries want it or not, Cuba holds authorship of Salsa. That is as factual as Narciso Lopez designing of our tween sister flags.

Us Latinos should not try to change history based on our nationalistic passions. Knowin how to Salsa is different that knowing about its history. :roll:
guaracha is another rhythm all in itself, and it is bolero+rumba+clave (but on a different time measure than salsa)
and surely you don't believe that descargas only took place in cuba.

never did i say that salsa was a ny product. i just said that the term was popularized in ny. salsa was happening in pr before it even got to ny. and the addition of bomba, plena, jibaro was happening before the exportation of salsa to ny. check out cortijo y su combo, ismael rivera, etc.

no one is trying to change history based on nationalistic passions. but it is the amalgamation of various elements that create a new product in and of itself. i doubt very seriously that jamaicans would argue that they are the birthplace of perreo (reggaeton).

[squirrel]

Does it really matter who invented Salsa? Is there anyone who wants to apply for a patent?

Salsa belongs to everybody! It is as international as any form of music (or art) should be!

Everyone has their own opinions on Salsa music (and dance). Some would argue endlessly on Salsa and Mambo issues, others on who invented it... :)

I am Romanian and dance to this beautiful music... gosh, it's the ONLY music I've been listening to eversince I discovered it, 4.5 years ago! Even now, while I type this, I am listening to Salsa... (Eddie Santiago - Mia)

Do you think arguing makes a difference? ;) I think not!

I have my favs and my dislikes in Salsa... but why argue over it?

[Guarachero]

Squirrel: :D :D

I agree in part with you. Disputing ownership of music does not help some dancers, because they just dance :(

But for some others, history matters because they feel the need to understand the essence –the ghost of that thing they dance to. It is so enchanting, captivating and seductive that they know it’s got to have mysteries :D They don’t all understand the lyrics, but they all feel it.

And yes, to understand any language with proficiency, you must learn about the culture of that country :roll: All languages –like dance- have context, and if you think that context does not matter, you’ll be speaking half tongue. I’ve seen some of those half dancers.

Salsa is about cultivating excellence for self gratification. That was the original intent of Africans and Españoles alike. That's what we all do and each time we get better and better (like Buddhism).

[Guarachero]

Rey de la Pista: :D :D

Yes, Guaracha had all the ingredients you've just mentioned :applause: But that's exactly what origunated Casino. It all started with Descargas, when groups started to mix all that. Guarapachanga, Danzonchá, Sonetes (+) and all that hodgepodge thrown into one piece.

[squirrel]

@ Guarachero...

What I meant was that disputes over the history of Salsa music and dance are not positive and productive! Talking about this is a lot more productive! :)

And I am very interested in the history of Salsa...

[peachexploration]

As to the first Salsa, I don't think that can really be answered. There wasn't a single moment where New York afro-Cuban music turned into Salsa. It was a long evolution through the 60s.

that is a good way of putting it. salsa came about through an evolution that occurred in the 1960s. (the only thing that i would add is that it wasn't just afro-cuban music or rhythms.) the whole thing that is difficult about pinpointing the birth of salsa is that salsa was created before it was named. salsa was going on in puerto rico before the term itself or atleast the identification of the music under the term "salsa" occurred.

Rey and JHB. :D Any artists during that evolution come to mind? :)

[borikenSalsero]

The only people that declare Salsa as Cuban sound are purists and the mainstream world that have half knowledge over the topic.

From Cuba's Juan Formell, to Venezuelas Cesar Miguel Rondon, and NY Citys Max Salazar all say exactly what is written above. Even Ruben Blades, and Juan Luis Guerra who is a merenguero, laugh when people say the distinct sound of Salsa is Cuban. There isn't one band to-date in Cuba that plays what is known as true Salsa sound, the closest thing is Jimmy Delgado's and where did he pick up the sound? Willie Colon in New York!

Out of Juan Formell's mouth, "Cuba has never been able to play the true sound of Salsa!"

Tito Puente was a music purist; there is no way out of that, as well as a Mambo only player. Tito Puente never played Salsa! He actually thought the new guys were hacking and killing Mambo, which in turn created the Salsa sound.

Cuba gave salsa its roots. Not its sound, its roots, so if purists want to get fancy about it, then Salsa was born in Africa not Cuba.

Salsa is a sound, which became uniform in 1972, before that Salsa was a mixture of sounds with no particular rhythmic foundation that made them one specific genre, hence, why Mr Bauza used to call it a fancy Guaguanco when salsa was spoken of.

There isn't one respectable music historian that says Salsa isn't a NY born sound. Salsa is one of 3 Latin sounds born in NY City. There isn't anyway around it, however, I’m sure this argument will continue until everyone is up to speed from facts and not hear-say.

What is meant by salsa is the projected sound, not that it is written on a mambo sheet, but that mixture of genres, that aggressive approach to rhythm and melody. The use of the trombones, trumpets, in a unique way.

The first ever album considered by many to have kicked start Salsa is Eddie Palmieri's la Perfecta, then Larry Harlow's Salsa that marks the beginning of uniform sound for the new music. Oddly it is a mixture of Cuban sounds, not really what is known as Salsa. Along with that came Willie Colon, and Ray Barretto. Those three (Eddie Palmieri, Willie Colon, Ray Barretto) are the main figures in what is considered Salsa, as well as considered direct sons of Salsa even when Barretto was already a main figure in music. Celia isn’t considered a daughter of Salsa, she is considered a Guarachera! Even when, indeed because of this young new sound she became known as the Queen of Salsa, but a product of, she never was!

From the 60s on came the developing stages of Salsa until it reached a uniform sound around 1972. Unlike it is believed by mainstream, Cortijo didn't play Salsa in PR, he played Bomba mixed with plena, it wasn't until Cortijo himself decided to use the NY City sound in his music that Salsa was transformed into Rican Style Salsa in a period of what is known as Cortijeando.

This issues isn't dead only to those who lack knowledge on the subject. Besides that even Cuba's most respected musicologist, this is my fault as I don't remember his name, states that Salsa is a truly unique sound that was establish in NY City. Salsa is an urban sound!

I used to want to convince everyone of the truth about Salsa when I figured out that not until everyone is educated about the subject will it end! With that, take what I wrote as fact or fiction, it isn’t for me to say or further debate what anyone wishes to believe. All I know is that as I once stood on the side of Cubans exclaiming authority, today I stand in the middle and say, if it wasn’t for all the Latin, Afro, Jewish, Columbian, Italian musicians in NY City there would be no Salsa.

The rest is either, Son, Guaracha, Mambo, blah, blah, blah…

[peachexploration]

Once again! :D Where in the world have you been!!!!! :D I am so happy to "see" you!!!!!! :bouncy: :rocker: :banana:

Missed ya! Welcome back, Muchacho! :D

[borikenSalsero]

Once again! :D Where in the world have you been!!!!! :D I am so happy to "see" you!!!!!! :bouncy: :rocker: :banana:

Missed ya! Welcome back, Muchacho! :D

Sadly, work... :( I'm dying here, working too much and getting no play! :cry:

I've missed you as well peach!!!!!

[peachexploration]

......The first ever album considered by many to have kicked start Salsa is Eddie Palmieri's la Perfecta, then Larry Harlow's Salsa that marks the beginning of uniform sound for the new music. Oddly it is a mixture of Cuban sounds, not really what is known as Salsa. Along with that came Willie Colon, and Ray Barretto. Those three (Eddie Palmieri, Willie Colon, Ray Barretto) are the main figures in what is considered Salsa, as well as considered direct sons of Salsa even when Barretto was already a main figure in music. Celia isn’t considered a daughter of Salsa, she is considered a Guarachera! Even when, indeed because of this young new sound she became known as the Queen of Salsa, but a product of, she never was!…

Dude, you rock! :rocker: I didn't go back far enough. I was thinking early 70s. Wow! So, as early as 1961-64? Can't confirm the original release date of Palmieri's la Perfecta.

Cool! 8)

[borikenSalsero]

......The first ever album considered by many to have kicked start Salsa is Eddie Palmieri's la Perfecta, then Larry Harlow's Salsa that marks the beginning of uniform sound for the new music. Oddly it is a mixture of Cuban sounds, not really what is known as Salsa. Along with that came Willie Colon, and Ray Barretto. Those three (Eddie Palmieri, Willie Colon, Ray Barretto) are the main figures in what is considered Salsa, as well as considered direct sons of Salsa even when Barretto was already a main figure in music. Celia isn’t considered a daughter of Salsa, she is considered a Guarachera! Even when, indeed because of this young new sound she became known as the Queen of Salsa, but a product of, she never was!…

Dude, you rock! :rocker: I didn't go back far enough. I was thinking early 70s. Wow! So, as early as 1961-64? Can't confirm the original release date of Palmieri's la Perfecta.

Cool! 8)

La Perfecta came out in '62 if I'm not mistaken.


Latin Music in NY City started in the '20s which Puerto Rico's most renowned composer Rafael Hernandez. Then with the “influx” of Latinos into what later became known as Spanish Harlem things really got cooking; especially in the 30s all the way to the big bands of the 50s (Tito Rodriguez, Tito Puente, Orlando Marin, etc). …which attracted mounts of musicians from Cuba, Puerto Rico, Columbia, Dominican Republic, Jews, Italians, and even Afro-American Jazz players that were drawn to the beats of what son had morphed into (Mambo) with its big band sound. (Big band is a dead giveaway that the song belongs to the 50s). He, Rafael Hernandez and sister, also had the first Latin record store, as well as recording studio in the United States.

Because of financial reasons, big bands weren’t all that profitable for leaders as well as club owners that couldn’t pack places any longer, which brought the conjunto format with, maybe, 6 players counting the singer. By the late 50s musicians were, and Latin Music in the United States, mainly NY City because of its high Latin population, were at a peak enabling creative jam-session all over Brooklyn, Spanish Harlem, The Bronx, Village, morphing all different Cuban sounds, adding even American sounds, and others. A descarga is a direct product of Jazz into Cuban sounds, even while son and rumba still had their descargas, they were nothing like the wild crazy things Jazz musicians were making, as well as not characterized by them, hence, the descarga credit resides in Jazz not son, nor rumba.

The late 50s and early 60s saw same of the wildest morphing of music ever in the US, however, at this point because of the Cuban Embargo very little was being brought from Cuba, which caused those musicians to improvise giving Salsa its origins. Salsa’s credit goes directly to the product of those Jam-Sessions all over NY City. It is there, where Cuban music became so mingled that it created a sound absent in Cuba. In fact, still in the late 70s there were highly regarded musicians in Cuba who had never heard the NY City sound that later became known as Salsa.

So much so that Juan Formell from los Van Van used Willie Colon approach to playing the horns and applied it to his Charanga with a rock twist. He fell in love with the approach to the brass section Salseros created and he decided to use it as a mold for his band.

Cuban musicans still to date, credit Salseros for their efforts in moving adding to son in new ways never thought possible. They credit Salseros willingness to work with each other and not against each other, as was the practice in Cuba. Competing bands refused to share ideas, musicians etc, where as in NY City, all the players played for everyone and all were open to share their thoughts.

Early 60s to early 70s Salsa is a blend of styles, it can start as a guaguanco, go into a son, then merengue, etc, but once 1972 came around the basic foundation to follow was gaining strength and becoming the norm, there would no longer be an absent foundation changing forms from phrase to phrase but rather one, where the structure for the music was the son clave, with the basic rhythmic foundation we all now know, (tu cu, ta.) Off of that everything else floated in 3 different layers…
Hence, why people make the mistake of saying Salsa genres of music not one sound, that was true prior to 1972, after that Salsa became what we know now because of the Golden Years of Salsa the ‘70s. The term, it really has no significance except who wants credit for it, the fact is that the term was used in Cuba first just to mean, look how hot my music is, how spicy I can make it be for the dancers. It had nothing to do with the music blend, but rather hot danceable the music was. In the 60s all through the US and Latin American the word Salsa already meant Afro-Caribbean Music, nothing else, because of all the blends of music there needed to be a word that jammed all together, so Salsa was it; a mix! Bands from the 60s never really stayed in one genre, they ran around hitting all types of styles which gave the name that much more sense.

Even during the first Fania Concert at the Cheetah Club, Salsa was never formally used, but do keep in mind that latino’s all over Latin America and the US were already using it. The term was very popular in NY City, so much so that my dance instructor (She belongs to the 60s and 70s salsa era, still remembers when they used to say, Lets dance that Salsa, or there is a huge Salsa going on tonight at the Cheetah, to mean there was going to be played all types of Afro-Caribbean beats) .

Fania, finally decided to capitalize in what was already a popular term and used it to mean, what today is Salsa. That is pretty much a brief history of Latinos and our music in NY City.

The story for me is fascinating, more than that of the history of Salsa, but that of latinos in NY City.

[JaneMas]

According to Robertico Torres, former singer of Sonora Matancera, the first time the expression "salsa" was applied to the danceable music was in the late 1940s when Ignacio Pi?eiro composed "Echale salsita," dedicated to the African (Congo) who sold butifarras in Carretera Central in Matanzas. At the same time, Rosendo Rosel, composer and writer for CMQ in Havana, attests that "Bigote" Escalona used to introduce Soneros and Guaracheros with the expression: this following band plays with salsa." Then Tito Puente in New York used the same expression.

Remember that "Echale salsita" has a corus refrain:

?Saaaallsa!

Guarachero

Echale Salsita came out in 1932. And the use of the word Salsa there wasn't an attempt to name the music, and the song is not a Salsa at all. It is a septeto-style Son. Ignacio was just saying "throw a little sauce on it", ie, spice it up. And we have no evidence that it was the first use of the word Salsa in that sense.

The word Salsa to describe music as being hot, or soulful, was long-established by the time the music we know now as Salsa immerged in New York in the late 60s, early 70s, but that music wasn't "Salsa", as in, fitting the genre we now know as Salsa. Basically, we can consider that use of the word as related but not the same as how we use it now.

As to the first Salsa, I don't think that can really be answered. There wasn't a single moment where New York afro-Cuban music turned into Salsa. It was a long evolution through the 60s.

Thank you. That's correct. The term Salsita does not refer to music in this song. All he was singing was "put a little sauce on it" and it was referring to a local eatery the composer occasionally visited.

If the birthplace is Cuba then Charanga's birthplace is France via Haiti correct? We must acknowledge a pivot time when music takes a new course and gives birth to a new genre. Why do many keep on disagreeing?

There are various types of Mambos and Sons: Haitian mambo, Cuban Mambo, NY mambo, Dominican son, Cuban son, Puerto Rican seis (equivalent to Son), etc. Music evolves as did Danza, Danzon, Son, Son Montuno, Guajira, cha cha cha, etc. Son was played in Spain too; Just read Don Quixote! So if a genre takes a pivot in another location... let's say NY, why does the rule not apply to some of you? Benny More visited NYC and returned home with the idea of forming a Big Band Sound.... just like everyone was doing in NYC.

My son compares the Spanish boleros to those of Russia which are very similar. One day after a Russian folk group visited his school, he said, "Mami I swear that was just like the boleros you play at home."

Half of my favorite songs are of Cuban genres. Granted many were recorded by Ricans, but hey that's what makes up the majority of Fania's best.

The majority of genres names come from either the dance, or the uttered expression of the people. And as in the case of Mambo, a section of the arrangement "The MAMBO Section" became catchy when the musical director started to yell MAMBO to alert the group that section of the arrangement was coming up...and so the audience started to get down dancing that part of the song and got use hearing the word and association took place; Thus the catchy phrase attaches itself to the dance... El Catchy Theory. Salsa is misunderstood because of the mislabeling of this genre's name (salsa) to various genre's in LATIN MUSIC. This happened towards the end of the 70s when the big stores didn't know how to label all the genres, so they put it all under one umbrella called Salsa. Before that everyone knew what genre they were dancing to. When you think your hearing a Salsa your most likely hearing a Guaguanco, And when you think your hearing a Cuban or NY Mambo, Son Montuno or Guaguanco, it's a true Salsa. There is no such thing as Salsa dancing, everyone is still dancing Mambo. Remember we just applied the catchy phrase to the dance which is what everyone is now doing to Mambo (the dance or the music)...calling it Salsa... see?
________
Gartersex live (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/Gartersex)

[richie_rumbero]

The only people that declare Salsa as Cuban sound are purists and the mainstream world that have half knowledge over the topic.

Although the "sound" of what is called SALSA may be distinct from the "sound" produced by Cuban bands in Cuba, the NY'ers and Boricuas in Puerto Rico were, by and large, utilizing Cuban rhythms and structures. That is why Cuba gets the biggest nod from the musicians who actually play the music and can explain it and break it down. Which are the folks who everyone should seek out and learn from and not the Cesar Miguel Rondon's and Sue Steward's of the world....

From Cuba's Juan Formell, to Venezuelas Cesar Miguel Rondon, and NY Citys Max Salazar all say exactly what is written above. Even Ruben Blades, and Juan Luis Guerra who is a merenguero, laugh when people say the distinct sound of Salsa is Cuban.

I don't know where you heard or read that, but everyone you just mentioned do, in fact, say just that. All you have to do is read Max Salazar's book entitled MAMBO KINGDOM as to where he stands on that issue. He recognizes it as New York Afro Cuban dance music. By inserting "New York" in the description he is acknowledging a distinction from the music in Cuba. But he is also acknowledging the cuban musical influence in "Salsa."

Juan Formell acknowledges 'Salsa' as a musical identity, but does not dismiss it as not being Cuban. He views it as an extension of Afro-Cuban Music in Cuba. In the film YO SOY EL SON DE LA SALSA and in various interviews (mostly written in Spanish) that can be searched via Google, Formell considers "Salsa" to be the Non-Cuban 'Spin' to Cuban Popular Music. Which happens to be correct because even if it does have a few bars of Bomba or a brief segment where the timbalero plays a Cumbia rhythm pattern, if everything before or after that is a Son rhythm, than the song itself is dominated by a Cuban musical blueprint. It's Cuban music-PLUS. But a variation of Cuban music nonethless. BTW-It's important that people realize that "Cuban music" doesn't necessarily equate to being interpreted by "Cuban" musicians. Ruben Blades most definitely considers 'Salsa' to be Cuban. Although he knows that the "Salsa" from New York and that of Puerto Rico has its own distinct 'sound', the majority of "Salsa" bands in NY and Puerto Rico are playing the same rhythms that are being played in Cuba. They just 'sound' differently. A difference in the sound doesn't mean a difference in the elements. It's just another flavor. The way Venezuelan and Colombian "Salsa" sound distinct form the NY and P.R. style...

There isn't one band to-date in Cuba that plays what is known as true Salsa sound, the closest thing is Jimmy Delgado's and where did he pick up the sound? Willie Colon in New York!

You can contact Jimmy Delgado via his website and if you ask him who his influences are as a timbalero, he's going to refer to Orestes Vilato, Tito Puente and other percussionists who were by and large influenced by afro cuban music. While Jimmy did play with Willie Colon, all you have to do is listen to Jimmy's CD and you'll 'hear' that the music is rooted moreso in the Puente, Barretto, Tito Rodriguez, Palmieri hard-core "Mambo/Salsa" tradition. It featuers mutilpe trumpets, multiple trombones. That's not Willie Colon. There are no songs on JD's "Salsa Con Dulzura" that would suggest he picked it up via Willie Colon's 'sound'. Which is really not a fair analyzation towards Willie since you can't pin him down to one signature sound as his music is so diverse and one of the few "Salseros" whose music leans towards being uncategorizeable. On top of that, take a look at the arrangers Jimmy used. None are from the school of Willie Colon. They're not mixing and inserting non cuban rhythms throughout the arrangement the way Willie would feature in some songs. BTW-With the exception of 2 or 3 songs, Jimmy's CD comes across moreso than a radio-friendly 'Salsa Romantica' recording (with most of the songs penned by Julio Salgado) than the Willie Colon repertoire of the 70s and 80s. "Yo Sin Ti" from Willie's Demasiado Corazon CD comes close to some of those songs...

Out of Juan Formell's mouth, "Cuba has never been able to play the true sound of Salsa!"

If Juan Formell actually said that, you can't take what he allegedly claimed as being a general rule. Certain bands in Cuba probably can't replicate certain songs that were recorded by "Salsa" bands in NY or Cuba. But there are certain songs that bands from P.R. and N.Y. borrowed from Cuba that could be worse, mirror image or better than the original.

As an example, let's take a look at La Sonora Poncena. An orchestra from Puerto Rico playing PRENDE EL FOGON...

youtube.com/watch?v=a3cT8jkvveY

Now take a listen to the original version as performed by Chappottin Y Sus Estrellas....

youtube.com/watch?v=3W01XaLTvzM

Like La Poncena, they have 4 trumpets and have multiple singers, but in their case they use one guitar and a tres. They both extend the song in order to improvise a solo. Chappottin's group is playing the tempo only a tad bit slower than La Poncena's, but not by much. Other than perhaps overall sound quality, can you really say that this version isn't as danceable or something you can groove to as much as La Sonora Poncena's? It's the same song. Same rhythm pattern being played. La Poncena's is more amplified with a timbal whereas Chappottin doesn't have one. Each give their own "flavor" to the composition. (Written by Arsenio Rodriguez.)

The question you have to ask yourself is: Does LA SONORA PONCENA's version of "El Fogon" sound radically different in melody, rhythm, etc. than the original by CHAPPOTTIN Y SUS ESTRELLAS? If you believe Sonora Poncena is playing "Salsa," and Chappottin is playing "Son," what is it exactly that makes them be categorizably distinct from each other?

My opinion? They're playing the exact same thing. A Son Montuno. Why? Because the horse comes before the carriage. No NY sound. This is Papo Lucca and La Sonora Poncena's spin on a classic Son Montuno.

Now that's just ONE song. There are many other songs that would contradict or coroborate the real differences between Cuban music and the "Salsa" developed in NY, PR, and elsewhere. But you have to do it from a case by case basis. By each individual song. Because for every blanket statement made about an artist or music in "Salsa," it can be contradicted with examples found within that very same "Salsa" format...

Tito Puente was a music purist; there is no way out of that, as well as a Mambo only player. Tito Puente never played Salsa! He actually thought the new guys were hacking and killing Mambo, which in turn created the Salsa sound.

He was not a Mambo only player and he definitely can be attributed to playing in the same spirit the "Salsa" bands played in the 70s. Listen to the Spanish Harlem Orchestra's version of CUANDO TE VEA. Salseros today are dancing to that composition the way Mamboleros were dancing to it in the 50s. He wrote compositions that Salseros like Charlie Palmieri, Frankie Dante, Ray Barretto and others wound up recording. Take a listen to DANCEMANIA Vol. 1 & 2 which was recorded in 1957 and that is the blueprint, along with other Puente recordings from which many 'Salsa' bands from Barretto, Pacheco, Harlow, Colon, Ricardo Ray, etc. drew inspiration from. Nearly every timbal solo you hear in "Salsa" is rooted in at least one of Tito Puente's fiery solos.

Tito Puente was also adept at Jazz, Swing and the Blues, as can be heard on many of his more jazz-oriented recordings combined with afro cuban rhythms.

Some more video proof...

youtube.com/watch?v=KhtJ6YLyy90

Listen to the part where they go into a full blown 'Descarga' and TP goes off on the vibes. Tito Puente is responsible for everyone from Cal Tjader, Louie Ramirez, The Joe Cuba Sextet, Alfredito Levy, New Swing Sextet, Harvey Averne Dozen, and every other group TODAY that uses vibes in the "Salsa" realm. In that section of the song, can anyone deny that this wouldn't be regarded as "Salsa?" Can anyone not dance to it? If it's too fast for you, that's one thing, but if this is a Mambo, then so is every other song that is reminiscent of that same riff. (Vamonos Pal' Monte for example, which nearly everyone would identify as a "Salsa.")

Cuba gave salsa its roots. Not its sound, its roots, so if purists want to get fancy about it, then Salsa was born in Africa not Cuba.

That is true, but as I said before, it only applies to a select few. As we can see from the Sonora Poncena video and compare it to Chappottin, Cuban musicians and composers gave more than just its roots. They supplied whole entire repertoires to artists like Pacheco, Barretto, Larry Harlow, Eddie Palmieri, and others. Arrangements and even improvisational styles on piano (Lili Martinez, Peruchin, Lino Frias, etc.) and bass (Cachao) were influenced by Charlie & Eddie Palmieri, Larry Harlow, etc. and every bassist that plays this music. Like I said, I agree with you that there are non-cubans who paved the way for new ideas in the music (Barry Rogers' manner of playing trombone; Ray Barretto using brass instruments in his Charanga, etc.), but no one can deny there being a direct and major Cuban influence...

Salsa is a sound, which became uniform in 1972, before that Salsa was a mixture of sounds with no particular rhythmic foundation that made them one specific genre, hence, why Mr Bauza used to call it a fancy Guaguanco when salsa was spoken of.

Salsa is not a sound, nor is it a rhythm. It's just a word. Salsa has more than one significance as a term. Salsa was used as rallying cry for when the music was really grooving. Vocalists in Cuba were using it, as were vocalists in New York. It is quite possible that it may have been used in P.R. simultaneously. In it's most symbolic and cultural sense, Salsa is the name for the cultural reconciliation of everything that came before. There was a Nuyorican rennaissance that affected the music, the art, the poetry, theater and even comedy. All of the arts associaetd with New York latinos was given a distinct identity and it was all embraced under the term 'Salsa'. Bandleader and producer Willie Colon describes Salsa in one sentence. "Salsa is not a rhythm...it is a concept." I once asked him what exactly was this concept and he explained that it was the unification of the Americas. When FANIA releases a LP like SIEMBRA w. Wilie & Ruben Blades, it is a recording that no longer reflects solely the Nuyorican cultural landscape and lifestyle, but it was music that anyone from Peru, Colombia, Brazil, Venezuela, Mexico, Chile, Nicaragua, Panama, etc. could relate to. The boundaries that once existed had been broken and "Salsa" in the 1970s became the new "Voice" of expression for the masses throughout latin america. This same concept has managed to evolve and grow into a world wide embracement of this sub culture. So that now you have people in Germany, France, Japan, Switzerland, Russia, Spain, England, Australia, Africa, and other part sof the globe, all listening to and dancing to the music that you and I listen to and regarding and identifying each other as 'Salseros'. Lastly, it is a marketing term utilized by promoters, record companies and other entities looking to make a buck and know of no other means or way to get the attention of and cash in on the latin-american market....


There isn't one respectable music historian that says Salsa isn't a NY born sound. Salsa is one of 3 Latin sounds born in NY City. There isn't anyway around it, however, I’m sure this argument will continue until everyone is up to speed from facts and not hear-say.

Any serious individual who has bothered to take the time to really do the research, obtain a good chunk of the recordings prior to and during the "Salsa" boom of the 70s, including the music of Cuba and Puerto Rico, as well as what was happening musically in NYC during the 40s, 50s & 60s, can prove that what is known as "Salsa," in reference to it being regarded as a musical genre or style, was not "born" in NYC. The way to prove that is teh music itself. If you don't have the music to go by and compare from a musical standpoint and see if what Salsa bands in 1972 were doing anything different or similiar to what bands were doing in 1942, you can't really make any sort of factual assessment. The "Salsa" movement (as far as the music being recognized around the world as Salsa and it being popularized as representative of latinos in the 1970s) comes out of New York. But there was an evolutionary process taking place from years before that made it possible for the music to be produced in the 1970s. Aside from that New York Boricua sensibility in the music, the music in the 1970s being identified as "Salsa" could not have come to being without the influence of Cuban music from the past and up to that point, the Afro-Cuban Big Bands in the USA from the 40s & 50s, as well as the influence of Black/African-American culture rubbing off on musicians...

but that mixture of genres, that aggressive approach to rhythm and melody. The use of the trombones, trumpets, in a unique way.

I agree with you here. But it only is true amongst a select group of artists. Salsa is what you are describing it is, but it is also very much in teh Cuban tradition. The person I think of that best exemplifies having recorded in the modern Cuban Son style and NY Salsa stryle is Celia Cruz. Her work with Pacheco is pretty much a continuation of what she did with La Sonora Matancera. But with Tito Puente and with Willie Colon especially, she manages to branch out and record music using Puerto Rican (Puente), Brasilian (Colon) and other South American elements...

The first ever album considered by many to have kicked start Salsa is Eddie Palmieri's la Perfecta, then Larry Harlow's Salsa that marks the beginning of uniform sound for the new music. Oddly it is a mixture of Cuban sounds, not really what is known as Salsa. Along with that came Willie Colon, and Ray Barretto. Those three (Eddie Palmieri, Willie Colon, Ray Barretto) are the main figures in what is considered Salsa, as well as considered direct sons of Salsa even when Barretto was already a main figure in music. Celia isn’t considered a daughter of Salsa, she is considered a Guarachera! Even when, indeed because of this young new sound she became known as the Queen of Salsa, but a product of, she never was!

La Perfecta is continuing the musical sound of the 1950s and in particular recording songs that were written and already recorded in Cuba. Eddie himself he was influenced by the Cuban charangas and wanted to form a Charanga just like his brother Charlie. But due to economics, he was only able to afford a brass section on live gigs. Resulting in the now famous two trombone format.

Unlike it is believed by mainstream, Cortijo didn't play Salsa in PR, he played Bomba mixed with plena, it wasn't until Cortijo himself decided to use the NY City sound in his music that Salsa was transformed into Rican Style Salsa in a period of what is known as Cortijeando.

Bro, Cortijo did play what you could call "Salsa" in Puerto Rico. That was his greatness and what separated him from the rest. Aside from the Bombas (eg. Maquinolandera), Plenas (eg. El Bombon De Elena), he also recorded Mambo, Guarachas and Guaguancos. (eg. Moliendo Cafe, El Negro Bembon, El Chivo, Severa, etc.). All of that music is available on CD...

This issues isn't dead only to those who lack knowledge on the subject. Besides that even Cuba's most respected musicologist, this is my fault as I don't remember his name, states that Salsa is a truly unique sound that was establish in NY City. Salsa is an urban sound!

I used to want to convince everyone of the truth about Salsa when I figured out that not until everyone is educated about the subject will it end! With that, take what I wrote as fact or fiction, it isn’t for me to say or further debate what anyone wishes to believe. All I know is that as I once stood on the side of Cubans exclaiming authority, today I stand in the middle and say, if it wasn’t for all the Latin, Afro, Jewish, Columbian, Italian musicians in NY City there would be no Salsa.

The rest is either, Son, Guaracha, Mambo, blah, blah, blah…

All I'm going to say is that the proof is in the recordings. Without the music to go by and judge and compare and be able to see who are the innovators and who are the imitators, you'll never figure out the history or trajectory of what is known as "Salsa." That there were African Americans, Jews, Colombians and Italians musicians, along with Dominicans, Panamanians, Brazilians, enganged in this music is all true. But they were all a relative minority as compared to the Puerto Ricans, and then the Cubans, who maintained this music in the United States. So I have to disagree with the statement that without Jews, Blacks and Italians, etc. there'd be no 'salsa'. Look at what's happening today? How many African-Americans, Italians, and Jews do you see in Salsa bands? They're in there. But is their presence what makes or break the music? For anyone reading this and thinks not, then you have just tied in the fact that there was already a musical blueprint that existed prior to 1972. While it wasn't known as 'Salsa', it utilized the same arrangement theories/structure and framework in its time. Salsa and Songo in the 1970s is the continuation of that. 1990s Salsa Romantica and Timba are the continuation of those aforementioned which were prevalent in the 1970s. Today's Salsa-Reggaethon recordings of Andy Montanez, Ismael Miranda and Gilberto Santa Rosa, etc. is the next development of what came before. Remember that Salsa is a label the way Timba is. They're just words. Neither are associated with any rhythm or conventional melody. While they do signify something to its fans and the industry itself, they are not literally musical genres. They are simply furthering developments of genres that already existed.

And on that note... que se vayan pal' carajo to' el mundo!

Just kidding... :raisebrow:

[terence]

If Mambo is the " parent "-- then the offspring is Salsa-- think all would agree on that.

If that point is considered, then there are several other greats of the " era " for consideration , building up to the eponymous salsa--


Machito== ,Rene Touzet-- La Playa-- La Plata , to name but a few--- the list is long and illustrious .

[sweavo]

It's like asking "when does a tadpole become a frog?" when it grows legs? loses its tail? When it is green instead of black? How do you tell when it really has legs and not just little proto-legs? Where is the exact "point" at which it was not greeny-black but it was just very dark green?

An easy answer is "it's a frog from the first point someone calls it a frog". But the answer's easy because it ignores all the complexity and subtlety of the issue.

As far as I'm concerned:

Son = tadpole

legs, greenness and loss of tail happened on the music's route through puerto rico to New York, merging of many rhythms and ideas, shedding of some of the "soul" of son.

New Yorkers called it a frog.

** CAUTION ** over-extended analogy ** CAUTION **

By analogy, imagine in the year 2320 the pretty much the only dessert anyone eats is a banana split made with lemon sorbet, and everyone called it "dessert". Then the question "what was the first dessert" is similarly complex and messy: Well, there was trifle in 2007, but it wasn't really "dessert" as we know it in 2320... Well, there was the banana split in 1955, but it use ice cream, not sorbet...

/edit: bookmarks the thread for the next wiki overhaul

[djnik2003]

Richie,

the detail, thoughtfulness, and sophistication of your writing is always appreciated. Thanks for the insights.....

- DJ Nik

The only people that declare Salsa as Cuban sound are purists and the mainstream world that have half knowledge over the topic.

Although the "sound" of what is called SALSA may be distinct from the "sound" produced by Cuban bands in Cuba, the NY'ers and Boricuas in Puerto Rico were, by and large, utilizing Cuban rhythms and structures. That is why Cuba gets the biggest nod from the musicians who actually play the music and can explain it and break it down. Which are the folks who everyone should seek out and learn from and not the Cesar Miguel Rondon's and Sue Steward's of the world....

From Cuba's Juan Formell, to Venezuelas Cesar Miguel Rondon, and NY Citys Max Salazar all say exactly what is written above. Even Ruben Blades, and Juan Luis Guerra who is a merenguero, laugh when people say the distinct sound of Salsa is Cuban.

I don't know where you heard or read that, but everyone you just mentioned do, in fact, say just that. All you have to do is read Max Salazar's book entitled MAMBO KINGDOM as to where he stands on that issue. He recognizes it as New York Afro Cuban dance music. By inserting "New York" in the description he is acknowledging a distinction from the music in Cuba. But he is also acknowledging the cuban musical influence in "Salsa."

Juan Formell acknowledges 'Salsa' as a musical identity, but does not dismiss it as not being Cuban. He views it as an extension of Afro-Cuban Music in Cuba. In the film YO SOY EL SON DE LA SALSA and in various interviews (mostly written in Spanish) that can be searched via Google, Formell considers "Salsa" to be the Non-Cuban 'Spin' to Cuban Popular Music. Which happens to be correct because even if it does have a few bars of Bomba or a brief segment where the timbalero plays a Cumbia rhythm pattern, if everything before or after that is a Son rhythm, than the song itself is dominated by a Cuban musical blueprint. It's Cuban music-PLUS. But a variation of Cuban music nonethless. BTW-It's important that people realize that "Cuban music" doesn't necessarily equate to being interpreted by "Cuban" musicians. Ruben Blades most definitely considers 'Salsa' to be Cuban. Although he knows that the "Salsa" from New York and that of Puerto Rico has its own distinct 'sound', the majority of "Salsa" bands in NY and Puerto Rico are playing the same rhythms that are being played in Cuba. They just 'sound' differently. A difference in the sound doesn't mean a difference in the elements. It's just another flavor. The way Venezuelan and Colombian "Salsa" sound distinct form the NY and P.R. style...

There isn't one band to-date in Cuba that plays what is known as true Salsa sound, the closest thing is Jimmy Delgado's and where did he pick up the sound? Willie Colon in New York!

You can contact Jimmy Delgado via his website and if you ask him who his influences are as a timbalero, he's going to refer to Orestes Vilato, Tito Puente and other percussionists who were by and large influenced by afro cuban music. While Jimmy did play with Willie Colon, all you have to do is listen to Jimmy's CD and you'll 'hear' that the music is rooted moreso in the Puente, Barretto, Tito Rodriguez, Palmieri hard-core "Mambo/Salsa" tradition. It featuers mutilpe trumpets, multiple trombones. That's not Willie Colon. There are no songs on JD's "Salsa Con Dulzura" that would suggest he picked it up via Willie Colon's 'sound'. Which is really not a fair analyzation towards Willie since you can't pin him down to one signature sound as his music is so diverse and one of the few "Salseros" whose music leans towards being uncategorizeable. On top of that, take a look at the arrangers Jimmy used. None are from the school of Willie Colon. They're not mixing and inserting non cuban rhythms throughout the arrangement the way Willie would feature in some songs. BTW-With the exception of 2 or 3 songs, Jimmy's CD comes across moreso than a radio-friendly 'Salsa Romantica' recording (with most of the songs penned by Julio Salgado) than the Willie Colon repertoire of the 70s and 80s. "Yo Sin Ti" from Willie's Demasiado Corazon CD comes close to some of those songs...

Out of Juan Formell's mouth, "Cuba has never been able to play the true sound of Salsa!"

If Juan Formell actually said that, you can't take what he allegedly claimed as being a general rule. Certain bands in Cuba probably can't replicate certain songs that were recorded by "Salsa" bands in NY or Cuba. But there are certain songs that bands from P.R. and N.Y. borrowed from Cuba that could be worse, mirror image or better than the original.

As an example, let's take a look at La Sonora Poncena. An orchestra from Puerto Rico playing PRENDE EL FOGON...

youtube.com/watch?v=a3cT8jkvveY

Now take a listen to the original version as performed by Chappottin Y Sus Estrellas....

youtube.com/watch?v=3W01XaLTvzM

Like La Poncena, they have 4 trumpets and have multiple singers, but in their case they use one guitar and a tres. They both extend the song in order to improvise a solo. Chappottin's group is playing the tempo only a tad bit slower than La Poncena's, but not by much. Other than perhaps overall sound quality, can you really say that this version isn't as danceable or something you can groove to as much as La Sonora Poncena's? It's the same song. Same rhythm pattern being played. La Poncena's is more amplified with a timbal whereas Chappottin doesn't have one. Each give their own "flavor" to the composition. (Written by Arsenio Rodriguez.)

The question you have to ask yourself is: Does LA SONORA PONCENA's version of "El Fogon" sound radically different in melody, rhythm, etc. than the original by CHAPPOTTIN Y SUS ESTRELLAS? If you believe Sonora Poncena is playing "Salsa," and Chappottin is playing "Son," what is it exactly that makes them be categorizably distinct from each other?

My opinion? They're playing the exact same thing. A Son Montuno. Why? Because the horse comes before the carriage. No NY sound. This is Papo Lucca and La Sonora Poncena's spin on a classic Son Montuno.

Now that's just ONE song. There are many other songs that would contradict or coroborate the real differences between Cuban music and the "Salsa" developed in NY, PR, and elsewhere. But you have to do it from a case by case basis. By each individual song. Because for every blanket statement made about an artist or music in "Salsa," it can be contradicted with examples found within that very same "Salsa" format...

Tito Puente was a music purist; there is no way out of that, as well as a Mambo only player. Tito Puente never played Salsa! He actually thought the new guys were hacking and killing Mambo, which in turn created the Salsa sound.

He was not a Mambo only player and he definitely can be attributed to playing in the same spirit the "Salsa" bands played in the 70s. Listen to the Spanish Harlem Orchestra's version of CUANDO TE VEA. Salseros today are dancing to that composition the way Mamboleros were dancing to it in the 50s. He wrote compositions that Salseros like Charlie Palmieri, Frankie Dante, Ray Barretto and others wound up recording. Take a listen to DANCEMANIA Vol. 1 & 2 which was recorded in 1957 and that is the blueprint, along with other Puente recordings from which many 'Salsa' bands from Barretto, Pacheco, Harlow, Colon, Ricardo Ray, etc. drew inspiration from. Nearly every timbal solo you hear in "Salsa" is rooted in at least one of Tito Puente's fiery solos.

Tito Puente was also adept at Jazz, Swing and the Blues, as can be heard on many of his more jazz-oriented recordings combined with afro cuban rhythms.

Some more video proof...

youtube.com/watch?v=KhtJ6YLyy90

Listen to the part where they go into a full blown 'Descarga' and TP goes off on the vibes. Tito Puente is responsible for everyone from Cal Tjader, Louie Ramirez, The Joe Cuba Sextet, Alfredito Levy, New Swing Sextet, Harvey Averne Dozen, and every other group TODAY that uses vibes in the "Salsa" realm. In that section of the song, can anyone deny that this wouldn't be regarded as "Salsa?" Can anyone not dance to it? If it's too fast for you, that's one thing, but if this is a Mambo, then so is every other song that is reminiscent of that same riff. (Vamonos Pal' Monte for example, which nearly everyone would identify as a "Salsa.")

Cuba gave salsa its roots. Not its sound, its roots, so if purists want to get fancy about it, then Salsa was born in Africa not Cuba.

That is true, but as I said before, it only applies to a select few. As we can see from the Sonora Poncena video and compare it to Chappottin, Cuban musicians and composers gave more than just its roots. They supplied whole entire repertoires to artists like Pacheco, Barretto, Larry Harlow, Eddie Palmieri, and others. Arrangements and even improvisational styles on piano (Lili Martinez, Peruchin, Lino Frias, etc.) and bass (Cachao) were influenced by Charlie & Eddie Palmieri, Larry Harlow, etc. and every bassist that plays this music. Like I said, I agree with you that there are non-cubans who paved the way for new ideas in the music (Barry Rogers' manner of playing trombone; Ray Barretto using brass instruments in his Charanga, etc.), but no one can deny there being a direct and major Cuban influence...

Salsa is a sound, which became uniform in 1972, before that Salsa was a mixture of sounds with no particular rhythmic foundation that made them one specific genre, hence, why Mr Bauza used to call it a fancy Guaguanco when salsa was spoken of.

Salsa is not a sound, nor is it a rhythm. It's just a word. Salsa has more than one significance as a term. Salsa was used as rallying cry for when the music was really grooving. Vocalists in Cuba were using it, as were vocalists in New York. It is quite possible that it may have been used in P.R. simultaneously. In it's most symbolic and cultural sense, Salsa is the name for the cultural reconciliation of everything that came before. There was a Nuyorican rennaissance that affected the music, the art, the poetry, theater and even comedy. All of the arts associaetd with New York latinos was given a distinct identity and it was all embraced under the term 'Salsa'. Bandleader and producer Willie Colon describes Salsa in one sentence. "Salsa is not a rhythm...it is a concept." I once asked him what exactly was this concept and he explained that it was the unification of the Americas. When FANIA releases a LP like SIEMBRA w. Wilie & Ruben Blades, it is a recording that no longer reflects solely the Nuyorican cultural landscape and lifestyle, but it was music that anyone from Peru, Colombia, Brazil, Venezuela, Mexico, Chile, Nicaragua, Panama, etc. could relate to. The boundaries that once existed had been broken and "Salsa" in the 1970s became the new "Voice" of expression for the masses throughout latin america. This same concept has managed to evolve and grow into a world wide embracement of this sub culture. So that now you have people in Germany, France, Japan, Switzerland, Russia, Spain, England, Australia, Africa, and other part sof the globe, all listening to and dancing to the music that you and I listen to and regarding and identifying each other as 'Salseros'. Lastly, it is a marketing term utilized by promoters, record companies and other entities looking to make a buck and know of no other means or way to get the attention of and cash in on the latin-american market....


There isn't one respectable music historian that says Salsa isn't a NY born sound. Salsa is one of 3 Latin sounds born in NY City. There isn't anyway around it, however, I’m sure this argument will continue until everyone is up to speed from facts and not hear-say.

Any serious individual who has bothered to take the time to really do the research, obtain a good chunk of the recordings prior to and during the "Salsa" boom of the 70s, including the music of Cuba and Puerto Rico, as well as what was happening musically in NYC during the 40s, 50s & 60s, can prove that what is known as "Salsa," in reference to it being regarded as a musical genre or style, was not "born" in NYC. The way to prove that is teh music itself. If you don't have the music to go by and compare from a musical standpoint and see if what Salsa bands in 1972 were doing anything different or similiar to what bands were doing in 1942, you can't really make any sort of factual assessment. The "Salsa" movement (as far as the music being recognized around the world as Salsa and it being popularized as representative of latinos in the 1970s) comes out of New York. But there was an evolutionary process taking place from years before that made it possible for the music to be produced in the 1970s. Aside from that New York Boricua sensibility in the music, the music in the 1970s being identified as "Salsa" could not have come to being without the influence of Cuban music from the past and up to that point, the Afro-Cuban Big Bands in the USA from the 40s & 50s, as well as the influence of Black/African-American culture rubbing off on musicians...

but that mixture of genres, that aggressive approach to rhythm and melody. The use of the trombones, trumpets, in a unique way.

I agree with you here. But it only is true amongst a select group of artists. Salsa is what you are describing it is, but it is also very much in teh Cuban tradition. The person I think of that best exemplifies having recorded in the modern Cuban Son style and NY Salsa stryle is Celia Cruz. Her work with Pacheco is pretty much a continuation of what she did with La Sonora Matancera. But with Tito Puente and with Willie Colon especially, she manages to branch out and record music using Puerto Rican (Puente), Brasilian (Colon) and other South American elements...

The first ever album considered by many to have kicked start Salsa is Eddie Palmieri's la Perfecta, then Larry Harlow's Salsa that marks the beginning of uniform sound for the new music. Oddly it is a mixture of Cuban sounds, not really what is known as Salsa. Along with that came Willie Colon, and Ray Barretto. Those three (Eddie Palmieri, Willie Colon, Ray Barretto) are the main figures in what is considered Salsa, as well as considered direct sons of Salsa even when Barretto was already a main figure in music. Celia isn’t considered a daughter of Salsa, she is considered a Guarachera! Even when, indeed because of this young new sound she became known as the Queen of Salsa, but a product of, she never was!

La Perfecta is continuing the musical sound of the 1950s and in particular recording songs that were written and already recorded in Cuba. Eddie himself he was influenced by the Cuban charangas and wanted to form a Charanga just like his brother Charlie. But due to economics, he was only able to afford a brass section on live gigs. Resulting in the now famous two trombone format.

Unlike it is believed by mainstream, Cortijo didn't play Salsa in PR, he played Bomba mixed with plena, it wasn't until Cortijo himself decided to use the NY City sound in his music that Salsa was transformed into Rican Style Salsa in a period of what is known as Cortijeando.

Bro, Cortijo did play what you could call "Salsa" in Puerto Rico. That was his greatness and what separated him from the rest. Aside from the Bombas (eg. Maquinolandera), Plenas (eg. El Bombon De Elena), he also recorded Mambo, Guarachas and Guaguancos. (eg. Moliendo Cafe, El Negro Bembon, El Chivo, Severa, etc.). All of that music is available on CD...

This issues isn't dead only to those who lack knowledge on the subject. Besides that even Cuba's most respected musicologist, this is my fault as I don't remember his name, states that Salsa is a truly unique sound that was establish in NY City. Salsa is an urban sound!

I used to want to convince everyone of the truth about Salsa when I figured out that not until everyone is educated about the subject will it end! With that, take what I wrote as fact or fiction, it isn’t for me to say or further debate what anyone wishes to believe. All I know is that as I once stood on the side of Cubans exclaiming authority, today I stand in the middle and say, if it wasn’t for all the Latin, Afro, Jewish, Columbian, Italian musicians in NY City there would be no Salsa.

The rest is either, Son, Guaracha, Mambo, blah, blah, blah…

All I'm going to say is that the proof is in the recordings. Without the music to go by and judge and compare and be able to see who are the innovators and who are the imitators, you'll never figure out the history or trajectory of what is known as "Salsa." That there were African Americans, Jews, Colombians and Italians musicians, along with Dominicans, Panamanians, Brazilians, enganged in this music is all true. But they were all a relative minority as compared to the Puerto Ricans, and then the Cubans, who maintained this music in the United States. So I have to disagree with the statement that without Jews, Blacks and Italians, etc. there'd be no 'salsa'. Look at what's happening today? How many African-Americans, Italians, and Jews do you see in Salsa bands? They're in there. But is their presence what makes or break the music? For anyone reading this and thinks not, then you have just tied in the fact that there was already a musical blueprint that existed prior to 1972. While it wasn't known as 'Salsa', it utilized the same arrangement theories/structure and framework in its time. Salsa and Songo in the 1970s is the continuation of that. 1990s Salsa Romantica and Timba are the continuation of those aforementioned which were prevalent in the 1970s. Today's Salsa-Reggaethon recordings of Andy Montanez, Ismael Miranda and Gilberto Santa Rosa, etc. is the next development of what came before. Remember that Salsa is a label the way Timba is. They're just words. Neither are associated with any rhythm or conventional melody. While they do signify something to its fans and the industry itself, they are not literally musical genres. They are simply furthering developments of genres that already existed.

And on that note... que se vayan pal' carajo to' el mundo!

Just kidding... :raisebrow:

[richie_rumbero]

If Mambo is the " parent "-- then the offspring is Salsa-- think all would agree on that.

Only Mambo is not the parent, but rather one of many uncles. It's mother is Africa, and God is the father, because through the drum God speaks....

If that point is considered, then there are several other greats of the " era " for consideration , building up to the eponymous salsa--
Machito== ,Rene Touzet-- La Playa-- La Plata , to name but a few--- the list is long and illustrious .

Even w/o considering it, you are absolutely correct and that was one of my many points that without these artists you cite, there is no "Salsa." Along with those who came before them. This music is ever-evolving....

[terence]

If Mambo is the " parent "-- then the offspring is Salsa-- think all would agree on that.

Only Mambo is not the parent, but rather one of many uncles. It's mother is Africa, and God is the father, because through the drum God speaks....


....


The reference was to modern day social forms -- and actually to be more precise, in social terms, from Danzon, came the template for the Mambo basic " Box " movement, rhythmically speaking, with Bolero having great influence, on the initial structure .

[richie_rumbero]

If Mambo is the " parent "-- then the offspring is Salsa-- think all would agree on that.

Only Mambo is not the parent, but rather one of many uncles. It's mother is Africa, and God is the father, because through the drum God speaks....


....


The reference was to modern day social forms -- and actually to be more precise, in social terms, from Danzon, came the template for the Mambo basic " Box " movement, rhythmically speaking, with Bolero having great influence, on the initial structure .

Okay, you're referring to the dancing aspect. Even then, what emerged as Mambo in the late 1940s-early 1950s is a cross pollinization between the cuban styles (Guaracha & Son Montuno style dancing) danced by latinos in the United States (particularly in New York City) and U.S. dances developed and popularized by African Americans such as Lindy Hop, Boogie Woogie, etc.

The traditional (and not the ballroom) dance forms such as Danza, Paso Doble and even Tango have the same template for the basic "Box" movement the Danzon has.

"Mambo," the dance, as it came to be stylistically identified way back when, was established here in the United States. Despite the misconceptions of many on account of the musical label associated with Cuban music and musicians like Cachao and Perez Prado, there was no "Mambo" dancing taking place in Cuba in the manner it was being done in the USA. Many Cubans in the know who were around at the time residing on the island will attest to this. "Mambo" was a NY thing much like the Big Band Afro-Cuban Jazz orchestras was strictly a NY thing circa the 1940s. Eventually, it would make its way to Cuba as it did everyplace else the musical sub-culture made its impact on.

[terence]

[quote=richie_rumbero][quote=Terence2]

The reference was to modern day social forms -- and actually to be more precise, in social terms, from Danzon, came the template for the Mambo basic " Box " movement, rhythmically speaking, with Bolero having great influence, on the initial structure .

Okay, you're referring to the dancing aspect. Even then, what emerged as Mambo in the late 1940s-early 1950s is a cross pollinization between the cuban styles (Guaracha & Son Montuno style dancing) danced by latinos in the United States (particularly in New York City) and U.S. dances developed and popularized by African Americans such as Lindy Hop, Boogie Woogie, etc.

The traditional (and not the ballroom) dance forms such as Danza, Paso Doble and even Tango have the same template for the basic "Box" movement the Danzon has.

Not quite true .

.

I was dancing it " way back when " before its change-- until its was re named " Systemo Cubano " , dating to 1948 . The change from the Sq. to the current structure, did not take hold in " ballroom World ", until the very early fifties, but this was based on Bolero-- and the P.D. was based on a " March " principle and closely tied to Flamenco . Tango was a free form dance and its associations and have been clearly delineated and notated . The Adagio was one of the earlier forms of partnership performance types presented to the general public by the French .

And one should always identify the type of Tango-- there are 3 distinct popular forms, currently being danced and taught with additional hybrids evolving from Tango Argentino .

[JaneMas]

Centro Journal

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________
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[Timbalero29]

The only people that declare Salsa as Cuban sound are purists and the mainstream world that have half knowledge over the topic.

From Cuba's Juan Formell, to Venezuelas Cesar Miguel Rondon, and NY Citys Max Salazar all say exactly what is written above. Even Ruben Blades, and Juan Luis Guerra who is a merenguero, laugh when people say the distinct sound of Salsa is Cuban. There isn't one band to-date in Cuba that plays what is known as true Salsa sound, the closest thing is Jimmy Delgado's and where did he pick up the sound? Willie Colon in New York!

Out of Juan Formell's mouth, "Cuba has never been able to play the true sound of Salsa!"

Tito Puente was a music purist; there is no way out of that, as well as a Mambo only player. Tito Puente never played Salsa! He actually thought the new guys were hacking and killing Mambo, which in turn created the Salsa sound.

Cuba gave salsa its roots. Not its sound, its roots, so if purists want to get fancy about it, then Salsa was born in Africa not Cuba.

Salsa is a sound, which became uniform in 1972, before that Salsa was a mixture of sounds with no particular rhythmic foundation that made them one specific genre, hence, why Mr Bauza used to call it a fancy Guaguanco when salsa was spoken of.

There isn't one respectable music historian that says Salsa isn't a NY born sound. Salsa is one of 3 Latin sounds born in NY City. There isn't anyway around it, however, I’m sure this argument will continue until everyone is up to speed from facts and not hear-say.

What is meant by salsa is the projected sound, not that it is written on a mambo sheet, but that mixture of genres, that aggressive approach to rhythm and melody. The use of the trombones, trumpets, in a unique way.

The first ever album considered by many to have kicked start Salsa is Eddie Palmieri's la Perfecta, then Larry Harlow's Salsa that marks the beginning of uniform sound for the new music. Oddly it is a mixture of Cuban sounds, not really what is known as Salsa. Along with that came Willie Colon, and Ray Barretto. Those three (Eddie Palmieri, Willie Colon, Ray Barretto) are the main figures in what is considered Salsa, as well as considered direct sons of Salsa even when Barretto was already a main figure in music. Celia isn’t considered a daughter of Salsa, she is considered a Guarachera! Even when, indeed because of this young new sound she became known as the Queen of Salsa, but a product of, she never was!

From the 60s on came the developing stages of Salsa until it reached a uniform sound around 1972. Unlike it is believed by mainstream, Cortijo didn't play Salsa in PR, he played Bomba mixed with plena, it wasn't until Cortijo himself decided to use the NY City sound in his music that Salsa was transformed into Rican Style Salsa in a period of what is known as Cortijeando.

This issues isn't dead only to those who lack knowledge on the subject. Besides that even Cuba's most respected musicologist, this is my fault as I don't remember his name, states that Salsa is a truly unique sound that was establish in NY City. Salsa is an urban sound!

I used to want to convince everyone of the truth about Salsa when I figured out that not until everyone is educated about the subject will it end! With that, take what I wrote as fact or fiction, it isn’t for me to say or further debate what anyone wishes to believe. All I know is that as I once stood on the side of Cubans exclaiming authority, today I stand in the middle and say, if it wasn’t for all the Latin, Afro, Jewish, Columbian, Italian musicians in NY City there would be no Salsa.

The rest is either, Son, Guaracha, Mambo, blah, blah, blah…

My very first post and a very special thanks to borikenSalsero for confirming my impression of the origins of Salsa and its notable pioneers.

In particular, the two trombone sound of Palmieri’s La Perfecta signaled a clear break from the big band NYC Latin sound of the 50’s. I have virtually all of Eddie’s early albums and it’s instructive to listen to his band’s evolution through those albums. The move away from the strict discipline of the 50’s bands, and their ancestors, to a more improvisatory (descarga) feel as in jazz -- with multiple solos in each song showcasing many band members, not just the leader -- was evident virtually from the start. This became especially prominent in the style of the Fania All Stars whose members typically led their own groups.

But even an obviously well-informed musicologist like yourself might be unaware that the ultimate roots of Salsa were planted in the fertile soil of those who inspired these pioneers -- specifically, Colon by Rosemary Clooney (Mambo Italiano), Barreto by Vaughn Monroe (They Were Doing the Mambo), and Palmieri by Renato Carosone (Torero). For those interested in this more obscure chapter in Salsa’s evolution, further information can be found in my forthcoming book “Quantum Mechanics and the Etymology of Yoruban prayer in 19th Century Latvia.”

Seriously, I really appreciate your post. Best and most erudite definition and description of Salsa I’ve read to date anywhere.

[peachexploration]

Welcome, Timbalero29, to Salsa Forums. Happy to have you here with us! :D

[Salsacore]

Thanks for the interesting postings in this old thread, especially the long one by richie_rumbero. I'm suprised after having watched this video on youtube: Conjunto Chappotin - Camina Y Prende El Fogon. youtube.com/watch?v=3W01XaLTvzM
before that all old cuban songs I've heard didn't really sound like Salsa. But this? I don't know what to say. According to saxspot.com/1060247.html it says:

Camina Y Prende El Fogon - Performer: Conjunto Chappotin - Composer: Benigno Echmendia - ©1950

1950??? WTF? What actually is the difference to Salsa, what has been added later in New York? A little harder drum sound, isn't that almost nothing?

[tocatimba]

Thanks for the interesting postings in this old thread, especially the long one by richie_rumbero. I'm suprised after having watched this video on youtube: Conjunto Chappotin - Camina Y Prende El Fogon. youtube.com/watch?v=3W01XaLTvzM
before that all old cuban songs I've heard didn't really sound like Salsa. But this? I don't know what to say. According to saxspot.com/1060247.html it says:

Camina Y Prende El Fogon - Performer: Conjunto Chappotin - Composer: Benigno Echmendia - ©1950

1950??? WTF? What actually is the difference to Salsa, what has been added later in New York? A little harder drum sound, isn't that almost nothing?

The answer of course is yes. It is almost nothing.

This is a long argument. Due to Cuba's isolation for so many years, her musical contributions especially among those not very interested in delving into the matter are massively underrated. New York is the center of the media universe. What people say there is going to be taken as the gospel by people not really that interested in the origins. In my (and I guess others) opinion, Arsenio Rodriguez had basically put together the principal components of a musical style that most would call salsa. (He also claimed to have invented mambo but I think that is generally discredited as being a bit far ..... Cachao gets the nod for that).

Richie Rumbero has put together a very cogent reply to the truth of the matter. I would like to also add my thanks as others have done to his very valuable contribution.

[Abayarde]

in each Salsa de la Mata! show one or two classics from the 50's are included in the playlist to bring a wider perspective of where our beloved Salsa music came from. a lot of things since the 30's (and not from Fania's birth) happened to forge what we know today as Salsa.

[Abayarde]

Below is just one example: 1939's Cuarteto Mayarí... guess who's the second from left to right.

[groovetpt]

Below is just one example: 1939's Cuarteto Mayarí... guess who's the second from left to right.He looks like a very young Tito Rodriguez. Those eyes.

[Abayarde]

He looks like a very young Tito Rodriguez. Those eyes.

Tito Rodriguez indeed!... following this...

1942 - Recorded a song with Xavier Cugat
1943 - Military Service.
1944-45 - Performing and Recording with Noro Morales.
1946 - Performing and Recording with José Curbelo. At that time, Tito Puente was one of the musicians.
1946-7 Recorded with Chano Pozo, Arsenio Rodriguez and Machito.
1947 - Starts his first band "The Mambo Devils", later known as "Los Lobos Del Mambo".

after this, the rest is history...

[tocatimba]

Very cool regarding Tito Rodriguez: From Sublette's book:

...in 1946, José Curbelo (my note: the founding pianist of Habana's Orquesta Riverside).....recorded what was apparently the first tune by a New York band with the word "mambo" in the title: "El rey del mambo" sung by the young Tito Rodríguez.......Curbelo's band had been playing society Latin in the Cugat vein, but after seeing how Machito went over doing the real thing, he took the band "hot".