Is learning Casino Rueda good or bad for the beginner?

[peachexploration]

When I first started started salsa classes two years ago, I started in Casino Rueda. By the time I got to level four, I would hear things like "follow my lead", and "move or turn from your center" from the instructor. So, my classmates (followers) and I are standing there like "what the heck is he talking about". Guys would start to say things like "let me lead" before we even started to dance. (Although, they had no idea what that meant, just mimicking the teacher :?) So, I make it to level seven and find that the followers were "leading" the leaders. Why was this happening? It's because Rueda is focus more on moves. Hence the caller calls them out and the group executes them. In my opinion, it's really not good for beginniners. I recommend learning good technique in one on one classes, then go on to casino rueda. Any other thoughts?

[salsachinita]

I get a lot of beggineers asking me the same question as well, but the question I generally get asked is: "Should I start with L.A. or Cuban (two main styles in my town...we have zero NYC on2 yet)?"

Eventhough my personal forte is Cuban Casino/Rueda, I've always recommended a salsa (not Ballroom) school with a focus on solid basic techniques & musicality, rather than patterns & fancy tricks. They can always be added later.

As a social dancer, nothing frustrates me more to be lead by someone who is all tricks, but completely off-beat AND give very little regard to his partner's personal style & capability :x. Unfortuantely some schools churn them out by the dozens (while their instructors are fantastic social dancers, their students are often no reflections on themselves, so one really wonders :? ).

[SDsalsaguy]

I think you make a great point salsachinita...go get the best instruction, regardless of style. Now if 90% of your city dances a given style than it probably would be a good idea to go to the best instructor in that style but, otherwise, the quality of instruction matters a lot more than anything else.

[MacMoto]

I'm with you, Peach.

I don't think starting out in Cuban (casino) style is a bad thing in itself, especially in areas where there are lots of Cuban style dancers. A good Cuban style dancer can always take lessons in slot style and make a successful transition (and vice versa).

However, I do not think Rueda -- as opposed to one-on-one Cuban -- is a good tool for teaching salsa, because it doesn't teach you what I regard as the most important element of salsa (and any partner) dancing: lead/follow. In rueda, all moves are called so the follower knows what move to do without waiting for the lead, and the leader expects the follower to do the move without having to lead her. The idea of lead/follow is not an easy thing to get hang of when you first try your hand at partner dancing even when the teacher takes pains to teach it properly. All beginners struggle with it. And if it's not taught as part of the course, you have no chance of ever learning it -- you will end up believing salsa is all about learning as many named moves as possible. :(

[azzey]

I'm with you, Peach.

However, I do not think Rueda -- as opposed to one-on-one Cuban -- is a good tool for teaching salsa, because it doesn't teach you what I regard as the most important element of salsa (and any partner) dancing: lead/follow. In rueda, all moves are called so the follower knows what move to do without waiting for the lead, and the leader expects the follower to do the move without having to lead her.


In my experience of many LA, NY and Cuban Rueda classes there is no difference. You just as many follows trying to back-lead the moves. There is practically no difference between doing Rueda and a turn-pattern class in another style. The quality of teaching is what matters in both and should include lead/follow.

[squirrel]

I'll have to agree to you guys ... sorry azzey, but I think Rueda can be far worse when it comes to teaching bad habits to the dancers...

First of all, girls do backlead... they just do the pattern no matter if led or not! And I was even told at one point to help the lead by doing it myself! Don't see how that could've improved his leading abilities... :)

In Salsa, it is far easier to get girls not to backlead... I try and dance with all my female students and explain them whatever it is that they are doing wrong in my opinion... and tell them to abstain from backleading...!

Just my 2 cents... :)

So I would definitely advise people to start with Salsa!

[esa negrita...]

OK...I'm a bit nervous now. I've started in Rueda after a few nights of clueless social dancing and I really like it, but I'm identifying with so much of what you guys are saying. There are some guys there, I can see exactly where they're leading...very strong. But others...well...i'm just glad there IS a caller because if not, I'd just be lost. Being that I'm in South Florida, Casino is the dominant style and outside of privates (which I'm not ready to invest in yet) Rueda seems to be the preferred teaching style. Do you guys have any suggestions for beating the Rueda lag? Thanks!

[Jones, Nikka]

In my experience of many LA, NY and Cuban Rueda classes there is no difference. You just as many follows trying to back-lead the moves. There is practically no difference between doing Rueda and a turn-pattern class in another style. The quality of teaching is what matters in both and should include lead/follow.

I could not agree more with you, azzey. It is all about how the teacher presents each move. My teacher introduces rueda patterns as if they were any other style, with detailed explanations about lead, follow, timing and rhythm. Sure it helps sometimes that us girls know the moves, but although we can do our part, we can not lead the man into his.

On the positive side, I have noticed that guys who learn rueda are always, but always on rhythm. I asked my teacher about it and he agreed with me: having so many cues (visual, aural and vocal) make it almost impossible for a begginer to fall off rhythm in a rueda.

Also, on the positive side, rueda dancers are a lot more flexible with their moves and their style than NY or LA style dancers.

[LongHairedLeader]

I think Jones, Nikka just hit on an important point here. Whilst there are many reasons that Rueda is a trouble for beginners, it is also a very good excercise in practicing timing.

You know those guys who think they're good, but they're consistently dancing off-beat? Rueda is a great way to highlight this to them, without fear of criticism - when they start the move at a different time to everyone else in the circle, they'll notice quickly that theres something wrong, hopefully making them pay more attention to their social dancing timing...

[sababa]

i must agree that with rueda it's quite easy to stay on-beat. another reason for this is in the music itself. rueda songs are usually more rhythmatic than "ordinary" salsa songs, so it's much easier to hear the beats. but there is a tradeoff - after dancing to a loud jolly-jolly rueda it's pretty hard to catch on to the rhythm of a romantic song.

[salcero2005]

Rueda is a great way to learn the rudiments of salsa, along with a lot of basic moves, in a short amount of time. It's friendly and a good way to transition over to mambo style salsa.

[sarita1011]

First of all, girls do backlead... they just do the pattern no matter if led or not! And I was even told at one point to help the lead by doing it myself! Don't see how that could've improved his leading abilities... :)

I was guilty of this for a long time. While I really like rueda, I found that I was backleading (or trying to backlead) when I danced one-on-one, on1 salsa. It's taken a conscious effort (and a gentle reminder from a couple of nice leaders) not to backlead. Now, even in rueda, if a guy starts leading a different move than what was called, I still follow the move he leads. He'll eventually get that he's not doing the called move.

On the positive side, I have noticed that guys who learn rueda are always, but always on rhythm. I asked my teacher about it and he agreed with me: having so many cues (visual, aural and vocal) make it almost impossible for a begginer to fall off rhythm in a rueda.

Also, on the positive side, rueda dancers are a lot more flexible with their moves and their style than NY or LA style dancers.

I agree with this.

[DeeplyDippy]

I think Rueda is good for beginner leads, not so sure about followers.

Leads learn and repeat a lot of recognised moves - I use a lot of Rueda moves on the floor even now.

Followers - hmmm. I've danced with some of my Rueda circle and realised they can't dance salsa.

[el_Che]

Well, today is a good a time as any to wake this thread up :)

I think that Rueda de Casino is GREAT for beginners due to it being as social dancing as a salsa style can get!

Many beginners tend to get frustrated when some things don't work out, and leave the class, never coming back, or coming back after years maybe.

In a Rueda you have great group dynamics; you have a whole group of people the same level as you, running into many of the same problems as you are, all working for the same "goal" of having a fun & functional Rueda.
There is good spirit around everywhere.

Also, you can learn a lot of different moves in a short period of time, trying them out with many partners that you are constantly changing ("dame una chica..."), thus getting to know many leads \ follows this way.

As for girls back leading, this has nothing to do with the styles you are learning; it happens to almost everyone in every style.
It certainly happens more when the leader is still new and quite unsure of himself, so then the follower tries "helping out" by back leading...
That's horrible! but it has nothing to do with Rueda or "regular" classes you are taking.
Girls will back lead in any class which teaches patterns, and it does not matter if you are standing in a circle or in lines.

[Salsa Bear]

I think that Rueda de Casino is GREAT for beginners due to it being as social dancing as a salsa style can get!

Many beginners tend to get frustrated when some things don't work out, and leave the class, never coming back, or coming back after years maybe.

In a Rueda you have great group dynamics; you have a whole group of people the same level as you, running into many of the same problems as you are, all working for the same "goal" of having a fun & functional Rueda.
There is good spirit around everywhere.

That's very true. I tried rueda de casino, but I didn't really care for it that much. However, the class dynamics were very different from "mainstream" salsa classes. It would be cool if a regular salsa class could somehow be organized in a similar manner.

I left the class because I just didn't care that much for rueda. However, I didn't feel totally crushed or demoralized, which was a nice feeling for a change. In a rueda class, you won't see anyone standing around looking lost, dejected or whatever; it's nearly 100% participation 100% of the time.

[el_Che]

I left the class because I just didn't care that much for rueda. However, I didn't feel totally crushed or demoralized, which was a nice feeling for a change. In a rueda class, you won't see anyone standing around looking lost, dejected or whatever; it's nearly 100% participation 100% of the time.

In a Rueda class there are 2 great advantages over a typical "couples" class;
1. even if there is an uneven number of leaders and followers, one can still participate - there is constant partner switching, so you won't stand alone for a long while.
2. when alone, you can keep doing the steps (mostly the footwork, but I have seen some guys "miming" the movements of the hands as well) on your own until the next partner comes at the "dame".

IMO those principles should be present in "standard" classes as well; when practicing in lines, a good teacher should keep rotating the leaders between followers or vice versa all the time, even once every 5-8 minutes, so each person gets to dance with as many different leaders & followers possible.

[Up in the Air]

What's the point of learning casino if everyone is dancing On1 at the Clubs?

[Salsa Student]

In a Rueda class there are 2 great advantages over a typical "couples" class;
1. even if there is an uneven number of leaders and followers, one can still participate - there is constant partner switching, so you won't stand alone for a long while.
2. when alone, you can keep doing the steps (mostly the footwork, but I have seen some guys "miming" the movements of the hands as well) on your own until the next partner comes at the "dame".

IMO those principles should be present in "standard" classes as well; when practicing in lines, a good teacher should keep rotating the leaders between followers or vice versa all the time, even once every 5-8 minutes, so each person gets to dance with as many different leaders & followers possible.

This seems to be a regional thing. In the U.S. it's pretty standard to rotate partners (an exception being most of the lifts classes). I understand in Europe it's common to not rotate parthers, what's it like in most of Asia?

[timberamayor]

This seems to be a regional thing. In the U.S. it's pretty standard to rotate partners (an exception being most of the lifts classes). I understand in Europe it's common to not rotate parthers, what's it like in most of Asia?

I'm in Europe and we usually rotated partners in class although occasionally there were couples who outright refused to dance with anyone else. These were casino classes held by Cubans, but not rueda classes.

EDIT: Being used to rotating partners I wouldn't want to take classes where you just dance with one person. You learn so much just by dancing with a variety of people in class. I've done that at workshops however.

[terence]

Being used to rotating partners I wouldn't want to take classes where you just dance with one person.

You learn so much just by dancing with a variety of people in class. I've done that at workshops however.





It depends upon the class " make up ", I tend to get 99% couples, and they make it quite clear, NO partner changing. Singles are usually there for a social mix .


And, as to learning , I hope that my teaching ,will get the same results no matter the style/makeup of the class .

As a point of interest , Rueda is simply another format of" Formation " and or " Sequence " dance that are taught in B/room .

Upside.. more social.. downside, both tend to expect "B" to follow" A "in free style social settings .

[terence]

Rueda is a great way to learn

and a good way to transition over to mambo style salsa.



??.. splain.

[el_Che]

What's the point of learning casino if everyone is dancing On1 at the Clubs?

What does dancing on1 has to do with Rueda?
Rueda is a form of dancing, not music or rhythm...
It can be danced "a tiempo" (on1 or on3) or "contratiempo" (which is more on2 or even on4).

??.. splain.

Yeah, I didn't get this one, too.


I also think there should be partner switching, except if you get a class which is completely made up of couples, as Terrance mentioned.

[Smejmoon]

This seems to be a regional thing. In the U.S. it's pretty standard to rotate partners (an exception being most of the lifts classes). I understand in Europe it's common to not rotate parthers, what's it like in most of Asia?

In Germany it seems they don't share their partners in classes. But in rueda it should be a non issue, right? :)

[terence]

. But in rueda it should be a non issue, right? :)



If you dance it, it should be.. its part of the "system ". Even BR formations sometimes switch partners .

[Big10]

It's because Rueda is focus more on moves. Hence the caller calls them out and the group executes them. In my opinion, it's really not good for beginniners. I recommend learning good technique in one on one classes, then go on to casino rueda. Any other thoughts?

It depends on what is meant by the term "beginners." If we're talking about people with zero Salsa skills starting from scratch, then yes I believe they are best served by getting a solid foundation in Salsa timing, lead/follow, the cross-body lead, and the other things that are taught in the first month or two of classes devoted to one-on-one Salsa dancing. However, I don't think the student needs to have fully mastered those concepts before starting Rueda and, of course, most students taking Intermediate-level Salsa classes are still "beginners" in the grand scheme of things, anyway. After the foundations are covered, then Rueda is fine for allowing technique to be further developed and, as other posters have pointed out, is especially good for new leaders (by taking the pressure off of them for having to think about putting combinations together).

I teach Rueda workshops and my studio has a soft requirement that students be at least Intermediate-level dancers before jumping into Rueda. However, that's mainly so that we don't have to spend time teaching the Salsa basics to true beginners, and attendees know that up front. Needless to say, we still have to do a lot of corrective work :eek: on technique during the workshops -- but our system really does help the flow of the workshops, as opposed to having to deal with a room full of people who thought that watching Rueda was "neat" but really don't know much at all about partner dancing.

[el_Che]

I think that learning from scratch in a Rueda can be as good or as bad as learning 1-on-1, because you are learning the same concepts of timing, lead-follow, and many of the same basic elements.

Rueda has many social advantages, as I have mentioned before, but because of the fact that most moves taught are for couples, and only a minority is "Rueda exclusive", there is not much difference in terms of technical learning.

I have learned salsa dancing in a Rueda since day 1, and I can say that the whole atmosphere of the Rueda, of dancing as a group with other people, having the same trouble and working it out together, did help me in keep going back in the day.
Most clubs and schools I know teach Casino using the Rueda format from scratch to the top, maybe having 2 "basic" lessons (for those who came for the 1st time in their lives), 1 of which is in the Rueda format and the other not, running parallel to each other.

[bailar y tocar]

and schools I know teach Casino using the Rueda format from scratch to the top, maybe having 2 "basic" lessons (for those who came for the 1st time in their lives), 1 of which is in the Rueda format and the other not, running parallel to each other.

That is one advantage of rueda as the class format. We do classes with 3+ circles simultaneously so people can go to the circle of their level. The main problem with 1 on 1 classes is that some people are ahead of the class and others are behind and only those in the middle get the best return on time and money out of the class.
Also with 3+ circles its easy to send people who are not keeping up to a lower level circle instead of sending them home.

[el_Che]

This is exactly the situation in the clubs and classes in my area.
There are 1-2 lessons for total beginners (these are called "basic level lessons"), and a large number of circles catering different levels of dancers; some times there are 3 more, and some times even 5 or 6 of them!

[!!!]

That is one advantage of rueda as the class format. We do classes with 3+ circles simultaneously so people can go to the circle of their level. The main problem with 1 on 1 classes is that some people are ahead of the class and others are behind and only those in the middle get the best return on time and money out of the class.
Also with 3+ circles its easy to send people who are not keeping up to a lower level circle instead of sending them home.

Sorry, but I don't think this is anything intrinsic to rueda. if you had 3 levels of classes of any style you could also send people to the appropriate level instead of sendsing them home. All you need is 3 teachers.

And I bet some people will be ahead and behind the curve in your wheels as well, but that's life

[Big10]

Sorry, but I don't think this is anything intrinsic to rueda. if you had 3 levels of classes of any style you could also send people to the appropriate level instead of sendsing them home. All you need is 3 teachers.

And I bet some people will be ahead and behind the curve in your wheels as well, but that's lifeAgreed. I *wish* we had a large enough pool of students at every Rueda class to break into 3 circles, with a decent gender ratio in every circle, and enough qualified instructors present to fully explain the moves/technique to each different circle. Unfortunately, that's not a realistic scenario for my studio, nor, I would suspect, in most cities around the United States.

[timberamayor]

I think one advantage to casino dancing in general that you can get from learning move sin a rueda is that you know that you are supposed to end up lined up correctly towards the center of the circle. So if you over/under rotate you end up wrong. Not a big advantage perhaps but helpful in learning to rotate through moves.

[DJ Yuca]

??.. splain.

As the post was made 7 years ago, it's possible an explanation will not be forthcoming.

[DJ Yuca]

The big adavantage of learning rueda: when you see a rueda you can participate. They're fun and a change from dancing in a couple.

[bailar y tocar]

I normally don't take LAon1 style or NYon2 style workshops but as I am at the Chicago Salsa Congress I did take a few and dance with mostly slot dancers at night.
The differences between the cuban moves I know and the slot moves that are taught are small except for the names and some of the hand and catch positions. Its not difficult to port over cuban moves into slot style.

It might be harder for beginners to do so though. If the leader (in Casino rueda) does not have the best technique to position themselves for a slot style move, it won't work well.

[terence]

As the post was made 7 years ago, it's possible an explanation will not be forthcoming.



Need to get these glasses checked !