What zone do you identify with?

[peachexploration]

Enjoy your growing pains (4 zones)

By Nicole DaSilva
A Summary of Progress as it Relates to Learning:

Unconscious Incompetence (Zone 1)
This zone is not so bad, as you are usually completely unaware that you may be doing it wrong anyways. This zone represents the very beginning of learning something new. If you discover that you really like to dance, the next zone will confirm just how great your desire is.

Conscious Incompetence (Zone 2)
Perhaps the absolute worst zone to be in. By this point you've seen enough capable dancers and may be wondering if you will ever be able to dance like the rest of them. This is when you know what you're doing wrong, but just can't do anything about it---YET! Your mind understands the desired result but your body may often refuse to cooperate causing a not so desirable outcome. This is the stage we all pass through before we can begin to master something. Dancers who are at this stage are about to embark on a lesson in perseverance. Hang in there! Your confidence will be restored in zone 3.

Conscious Competence (Zone 3)
This is where it finally starts to come together. You're doing it right and you know it! Still a little shaken from the previous zone, but nothing a little practicing can't fix. This is the intermediate phase of development and perhaps the longest. This is when a new dancer begins to discover that their feet have a mind of their own and that follow/lead is not the name of the team you're on. Your physical response time is quicker and your mind often feels left behind. This is called "muscle memory". This is the time to liberate your body & feet with a less conscious approach. Trust them, they just might surprise you.

Unconscious Competence (Zone 4)
Your efforts and commitment are well worth the results you are realizing about now! You are confident in your ability to learn anything new that comes your way. This is the point that your dancing begins to soar. You have a source to tap into for movement to rhythm. It feels almost unconscious and effortless. By now you know that the entire body dances. The music has become the basis for your choreography. You've developed a stronger repertoire and you hear music differently. You're testing all the rules to see which ones you can break. The advanced dancer can look forward to feeling good, looking good and getting only better! You will find different areas of development that will take you back to zone 1 but this time you're ready and willing to experience the wonderful frustrations that can be a part of learning. From here on the only thing to stop you is your desire.

Don't forget zone 2: Share your experience and ability with others. Remember what it was like when you were just starting? As an experienced dancer you can have a tremendously positive influence over someone who is at the beginning. Be kind, as you can also have a very negative effect. Don't offer your advice or correct your partner on the dance floor unless they ask you. This, as I hear it, really bothers most dancers. Besides, you never know who you are offering (what may be) the wrong advice to. Leave the teaching for teachers and do your best to make your partner feel good and enjoy dancing with you.

[salsachinita]

Great analysis......

I am somewhere between Stages 3 & 4, depends on the leads & styles.

A lot of the techniques require for multiple spins/tricks typical of L.A. style are still quite unfamiliar to me :oops: so I will need to concerntrate on techniques/interpreting leads rather than just go into 'autopilot' mode & play with the music.

I am sure this will change once I become more competent in this area.

Having said that, sometimes you come across an amazing leader who will lead you comfortably through things you had no idea you could do :shock: !

Love it when that happens :P .....!

[RugKutta]

I think I float back and forth between zones 3 & 4, w/ a dash of 2. I say 2 because I'll see alot of more experienced salseros do moves that just wow me, and I'll say to myself "dang, it'll take me months to get that", but then I get right back into zone 4 and realize that I do have the ability to learn anything. I have to remind myself that w/ every non-basic move that I have in my arsenal, I had seen someone else do it and was like " :shock: I CAN'T DO THAT!!! THAT'S TOO COMPLICATED!!!" And now look at me! I can do it! Also, after having danced for a half hour or so, I eventually get into this unconsious zone where I feel like I can do no wrong....I'm not even really thinking about anything, not caring if I mess up. I'll get so into the dance that even if I do mess up, I'll be able to play it off so well that it looks good, as if I meant to do it anyway. I can't quite see it coming or put myself into that zone, but I know when I'm there and it's a wonderful feeling.

A note of advice to those who are just starting:

DON'T BE AFRAID TO MESS UP!!! I can't count how many times I've made up a new move while trying to do something else and totally screwing it up. Many times I mess up one move and end up doing something that looked spectacular, only to not remember it later or somewhat remember it and not be able to repeat it on purpose. Another thing, when you mess up (believe me, it WILL happen), keep going and play it off as best you can. Salsa is all about having fun and looking good while doing it. When you mess up, mess up w/ confidence. I used to mess up a move and just stop and start all over. I learned that if you don't acknowledge to everybody else that you screwed up, nobody else but you and your partner know either (sometimes not even your partner :lol: ). Like my Public Speaking teacher once told me, NEVER LET 'EM SEE YOU SWEAT!!! (of course, if you're salsa dancing, the sweating part is quite obvious, but you get what I'm talking about).
Hope that helps 'yall.

Luv, Peace, and SALSA

Myron aka RugKutta

[tj]

I think I float back and forth between zones 3 & 4, w/ a dash of 2. I say 2 because I'll see alot of more experienced salseros do moves that just wow me, and I'll say to myself "dang, it'll take me months to get that", but then I get right back into zone 4 and realize that I do have the ability to learn anything. I have to remind myself that w/ every non-basic move that I have in my arsenal, I had seen someone else do it and was like " :shock: I CAN'T DO THAT!!! THAT'S TOO COMPLICATED!!!" And now look at me! I can do it! Also, after having danced for a half hour or so, I eventually get into this unconsious zone where I feel like I can do no wrong....I'm not even really thinking about anything, not caring if I mess up. I'll get so into the dance that even if I do mess up, I'll be able to play it off so well that it looks good, as if I meant to do it anyway. I can't quite see it coming or put myself into that zone, but I know when I'm there and it's a wonderful feeling.

A note of advice to those who are just starting:

DON'T BE AFRAID TO MESS UP!!! I can't count how many times I've made up a new move while trying to do something else and totally screwing it up. Many times I mess up one move and end up doing something that looked spectacular, only to not remember it later or somewhat remember it and not be able to repeat it on purpose. Another thing, when you mess up (believe me, it WILL happen), keep going and play it off as best you can. Salsa is all about having fun and looking good while doing it. When you mess up, mess up w/ confidence. I used to mess up a move and just stop and start all over. I learned that if you don't acknowledge to everybody else that you screwed up, nobody else but you and your partner know either (sometimes not even your partner :lol: ). Like my Public Speaking teacher once told me, NEVER LET 'EM SEE YOU SWEAT!!! (of course, if you're salsa dancing, the sweating part is quite obvious, but you get what I'm talking about).
Hope that helps 'yall.

Luv, Peace, and SALSA

Myron aka RugKutta

Quite inspiring, Myron. I like it!

[squirrel]

Somewhere between 3 and 4 (closer to 3 I guess...)

[borikenSalsero]

I learned that if you don't acknowledge to everybody else that you screwed up, nobody else but you and your partner know either (sometimes not even your partner :lol: ).

TJ, I can't tell you enough how much I agree with this statement. My Lady Love and I used to get into scuffles over her letting the world know we messed up. She'd throw her hands up, shake her head, make faces, I mean, you name it, she did it, letting the entire world and half the universe know we just messed it! I used to get so annoyed at it. I tried to explain how fun is what mattered and how screwing up didn't mean a God darn thing, that she must certainly needed to play it off cool the best she could.

Well, she still has dificulties with the facial expressions and throwing her hands up in the air, but is by far a 1000 times better than before... Well, guess what, people keep complementing us on how unison we look! To which we laugh because we know how much messing up is really going on, but since she is now more apt to turn the mess up into something else, the dance looks as if we really aren't messing up, which we indeed are! But... we are having fun!

[sagitta]

I learned that if you don't acknowledge to everybody else that you screwed up, nobody else but you and your partner know either (sometimes not even your partner :lol: ).

TJ, I can't tell you enough how much I agree with this statement. My Lady Love and I used to get into scuffles over her letting the world know we messed up. She'd throw her hands up, shake her head, make faces, I mean, you name it, she did it, letting the entire world and half the universe know we just messed it! I used to get so annoyed at it. I tried to explain how fun is what mattered and how screwing up didn't mean a God darn thing, that she must certainly needed to play it off cool the best she could.

Well, she still has dificulties with the facial expressions and throwing her hands up in the air, but is by far a 1000 times better than before... Well, guess what, people keep complementing us on how unison we look! To which we laugh because we know how much messing up is really going on, but since she is now more apt to turn the mess up into something else, the dance looks as if we really aren't messing up, which we indeed are! But... we are having fun!

Ditto. That is the mark of a great dancer. JamaicanSpice, a member of another forum that I belong is just like that. There are no mistakes. Just turn one thing into something else. :)

Zone 2 for the technical competence stages that this describes. However, apart from starting to dance swing I have never chosen to do any dance except for the feeling that it gives to me. About coming alive. Which is something completely different.

[MacMoto]

Between 1 and 2...? :oops: :(

[tj]

Since we're sharing...

The first year of learning to dance salsa was rough! I was stuck in zone 2 for a long time. Sure, I managed to get along by mostly sticking to fellow students in class, but there were plenty of dancers that were way more experienced than me. And I learned quickly that dancing with them (at that point in time) was usually a bad idea.

But I persevered, and eventually found general acceptance as I grew in competence. These were some of the keys for me:

1) Changing instructors. Introduced me to a whole new group of dancers. Added variety to my style and technique. Also, any time a visiting instructor was in town, I’d take the workshops.

2) Taking notes. Back in the day, I came up with my own shorthand for moves, and would take notes after class. Some students videotaped their class, but it depends on the instructor whether this is allowed or not.

3) Took a few Privates.

4) Practiced with fellow students outside of classes.

I’ve always been someone with the drive to excel. It was just a matter of finding where I fit in, and discovering my own uniqueness/style in the scene.

Another important point for me is to be happy with where I’m currently at (my current level of learning), but always looking to improve. Without that, I’d have probably given up a long time ago.

[youngsta]

Somewhere between zones 3 and 4, although closer to 3 at the moment. My zone 2 was a LONGGGG journey that I will never forget. Lasted almost a year, but I'm the better for it.

[sarita1011]

I was coming to create a topic about this and decided to do a search first. My question to all is this: How did/do you know when you've improved? I think I may be my own worst critic, so while I call myself a beginner there are others who have told me that I'm not. Recent case in point: I was out dancing on Saturday. Whenever I was asked for a dance, I would let the guy know, "Yeah, I'm kind of a beginner." So, we'd start dancing, and little by little he'd up the lead, and I guess I was responding to it without faltering too much, in which case he'd up the lead some more. By the end of the dance(s), I was told, "You are not a beginner. Why'd you say you are?"

The truth is that I don't know. I do still consider myself a beginner (or if we're going with zone numbers, then I'd say that I'm Zone 2). However, the reaction I get after the dance suggests that I'm more in Zone 3 then anything else. Is it simple because I am, as I stated earlier, my own worst critic that I don't believe that I'm out of the beginner stages?

[lolita]

somewhere between 3 and 4...
closer to 4 i guess.. and i am quiet happy ...
damn i love salsa

[Jones, Nikka]

...How did/do you know when you've improved? I think I may be my own worst critic, so while I call myself a beginner there are others who have told me that I'm not... The truth is that I don't know. I do still consider myself a beginner (or if we're going with zone numbers, then I'd say that I'm Zone 2). However, the reaction I get after the dance suggests that I'm more in Zone 3 then anything else. Is it simple because I am, as I stated earlier, my own worst critic that I don't believe that I'm out of the beginner stages?

This talk of zones is misleading because in fact, these sensations or perceptions are not always sequential. In fact you can go from one to another in random order during the same dance. It is more about how you feel about yourself at any given moment.

Example: If my partner pull out a very complex move without warning and I am feeling good about the dance so far, I may actually follow it without a worry and still enjoying it (zone four).

A minute later he may tell me, "I am going to try a very difficult move that I just learned". I may get nervous about not knowing what he is talking about and if he does the exact same pattern I may still be able to follow, but I will not feel as good about it (zone two).

Still, I know I am a good dancer (zone three).

At the same time I know in an intellectual sort of way, that there is still a lot I do not know about salsa not because I can not do it but because I do not even know it exists (zone one).

So what zone does that one dance put me in? I guess all of them, and at the same time!

[irMaxSALSA]

I exist in a zone that is beyond human comprehension.

I can enter and leave the Salsa Matrix at will.

I am the clave...

But enough with me...

lol

You forgot to mention Zone 0 : Total Incompetence.

These are the people that never make it to Zone 1.

These are the people that are plagued with the dreaded TWO LEFT FEET.

[DeeplyDippy]

I've danced with someone, who after a week's intensive salsa holiday, exhibited a negative salsa zone.

She could suck the competance out of partners (hang on, where am I going with this analogy ?).

Anyway, suffice it to say that she stuck her thumb in my ear while we danced :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Jones, Nikka]

I exist in a zone that is beyond human comprehension.

I can enter and leave the Salsa Matrix at will.

I am the clave...

I do not know what is is that you smoked, inyected or imbibed but... that was funny!

You forgot to mention Zone 0 : Total Incompetence.

These are the people that never make it to Zone 1.

These are the people that are plagued with the dreaded TWO LEFT FEET.


The zones are based on the learning process. Total incompetence means you have not started yet to learn. REad the first post again.

[MacMoto]

*bump*

Between 1 and 2...? :oops: :(
4 years on, I still seem to be hovering between 1 and 2... :oops:
Every time I think I've moved to zone 3, something happens which makes me realise it was actually zone 1 with the Dunning-Kruger effect. :(

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

[GForce85]

*bump*


4 years on, I still seem to be hovering between 1 and 2... :oops:
Every time I think I've moved to zone 3, something happens which makes me realise it was actually zone 1 with the Dunning-Kruger effect. :(

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect
Mac, if you're hovering between 1 and 2, that puts me...somewhere between -2 and -1 haha.

For real though, I think I'm at a solid 3 right now. I can actually remember the exact night I finally made it to level 3 (it's still only a couple months ago), then for a little while thereafter I would fluctuate between 2 and 3, sometimes in the same night. Now I'm pretty much staying at 3; haven't felt level 4 yet, but I'm looking forward to it! It's pretty cool to think about the fact that when I first saw this list online, I had been in level 2 for about a month, and I felt like I would never get out. Just under a year later, I made it! This was the toughest time I've ever had learning anything to the extent that I'm comfortable with it.

[redsalsero]

i think they are not enough zones where i can really identify myself. so i say 3 and i plan to stay very long on this one. untill i have danced with the greatest dancers. and seen most of the world.

[sweavo]

I'm in Zone 4, which is the same as Zone 1.

[devane]

Another article with another progress template.....

http://www.latindance.com/SixLevels.htm
by Josie Neglia
I would save this article because this page is part of an older version on her site. I had to google it to re-find it.

Concerning the 4 level system I would say it's impossible to say generally I'm at level 3 or 4 because when you are dancing some things are consious and some things are unconsious at the same time. Some aspects like timing and your footwork could be 4. You're concentrating but pulling off some styling aspect or spinning which is 3......

Then someone like Terrence could notice that you unconsiously lean forward or duck, making awkward movements when doing certain sequences, so you're level 1 in this aspect. After he says you that's level 2.
So it's too complex to generalise ;)

[opm1s6]

Don't forget zone 2: Share your experience and ability with others. Remember what it was like when you were just starting? As an experienced dancer you can have a tremendously positive influence over someone who is at the beginning. Be kind, as you can also have a very negative effect. Don't offer your advice or correct your partner on the dance floor unless they ask you. This, as I hear it, really bothers most dancers. Besides, you never know who you are offering (what may be) the wrong advice to. Leave the teaching for teachers and do your best to make your partner feel good and enjoy dancing with you.

This should be done at all levels, not just beyond advanced.

I'm solidly at 3 and working on 4, dropping to 2 frequently and dreaming being a 5!!!

[chr]

Concerning the 4 level system I would say it's impossible to say generally I'm at level 3 or 4 because when you are dancing some things are consious and some things are unconsious at the same time. Some aspects like timing and your footwork could be 4. You're concentrating but pulling off some styling aspect or spinning which is 3......

Then someone like Terrence could notice that you unconsiously lean forward or duck, making awkward movements when doing certain sequences, so you're level 1 in this aspect. After he says you that's level 2.
So it's too complex to generalise ;)

Very well said. I agree 100%.

[bailar y tocar]

Different zones for different things. Not sure I like the progression as described for social dancing. I would hope that performers or competitors strive to hit zone 4, but for social dancing ? Not being aware seems like not being able to appreciate which I would find boring and I would try to find a challenge to keep it interesting.

I have on occasion danced with someone while thinking about other things and doing whatever on autopilot, afterwards I wonder to myself "what just happened ?, did I just dance ?, was there anything memorable ? If the answer was 3 dunno-no combos, I'd say I just wasted two people's time.

On the other hand if the point of zone 4 would be to wonder "Did I just do that ? Is this really me dancing like that ? (in a positive sense), then zone 4 makes sense as a goal.

[Flujo]

Very well said. I agree 100%.2nd that!
For me it's probably somewhere between a late 2 and and mid 3. Sometimes I feel (...and act :oops:) like the village idiot but then there will be other times when everything comes together beautifully with only a little effort. The village idiot side tends to come out less often nowadays. :)