On the subject of rhythm and timing (Reversed)

[peachexploration]

In chatting with Ting over in the Beginner's Corner thread, it got me to thinking about how easy would it be for the lead to adjust when the follow has issues with timing. As a follow, you're at the mercy of your lead 90% of the time so my question is for the leads this time. How do you adjust when your follow has issues with timing?

[peachexploration]

Any ideas about this one?

[David]

Usually the issue that I face is the lady will go too fast at some point...maybe on a turn or on a cross lead. What I usually do is I will do something where I stop and "admire" her for an additional beat the slow things down before I move into something else.

[David]

I was just talking about rhythm and timing in my class tonight.
Timing: refers to the time signature. In salsa it is 4/4 time with four beats per measure
Rhythm: step on beats 1, 2 and 3 and pause on 4 (for On1 salsa)

There are many people who have good timing, but lack good rhythm (even some intermediate to advanced dancers). The problem is they don't hold the 4, but they still manage to start each new measure on 1.

[peachexploration]

Usually the issue that I face is the lady will go too fast at some point...maybe on a turn or on a cross lead. What I usually do is I will do something where I stop and "admire" her for an additional beat the slow things down before I move into something else.

Yeah, I've heard/read that that is what alot of leads do in order get us follows back on track. :P It does work. :) Okay, any other leads that would like to chime in on this one? :)

[m1ckey]

There are many people who have good timing, but lack good rhythm (even some intermediate to advanced dancers). The problem is they don't hold the 4, but they still manage to start each new measure on 1.

Hi David,
There may sometimes be reason to "slip" the rhythm a bit. For example on a slower romantic-type salsa, you may want go one-two-three-ee, five, six, sev-en... to get a more relaxed flowing rhythm that blends with the music and the style of dance you adapt to that...

But agreed, in standard pace or fast paced salsa it's sloppy to skip the pause. May be a different story on a race-track fast number again, where you're just racing through it to keep up again! ;)

[Guarachero]

I have to agree with BorikenSalsero.

Salsa is all about soul. Timing is but the ways to learn how to dance. If you feel the rhythm in all its dimensions, your body will respond well.

For example, some times people wonder why Cubans integrate so much moves in one Salsa song. But if you listen carefully to a good Salsa, you may discover that it may be mixed up with a bit of every thing, such as Mambo, Chá, Rumba, Yambú, Guaracha, Changüí, Lukumí, Palo Monte and Abakuá even.

When people go off time is because they do not actually have rhythm.

I hvae always seen that the best Salsa dancers know how to dance just about any Latin rhythm.

Saludos cubanísimos,

Guarachero

[peachexploration]

Hi Guarachero! Welcome to Salsa Forums! Happy to have you here! :D

...When people go off time is because they do not actually have rhythm.... When you're out dancing socially, How do you adjust when that happens?

[salsadame]

yeah how?? :) hi peach.. glad to see ya take this out and post the reverse of my question! :D

of late.. guess i've bee n adjusting to that (when timing goes off) by following the leader's body movements. when the leader do not have rhythm.. we just have to follow the off rhythm lead so at least it looks like we are dancing *together*? hahaaa.. :P

by now.. my concept of the follower is really to *follow* the the leader the best you can. sometimes these 'off timing' moments may just last for just a while and he snaps back to the music again. while dancing socially.. think it's no big deal and we followers should accomodate by making the lead look good by just reading his forward and backward steps and flowing along with him.

oh this is still from the follower's point of view. :lol: reckon david has already given quite a few good suggestions.. about pausing to admire when the follower goes too fast.. or how about doing some men styling when the follower is too slow and a basic step needs to be filled in before another turn pattern can be executed?

[peachexploration]

...... or how about doing some men styling when the follower is too slow and a basic step needs to be filled in before another turn pattern can be executed?

Any other leads out there that may use this tactic? How about some shines thrown in as well?

[Guarachero]

Yes. I don't know how useful it can be, but when I was learning to dance with girls, some times the more experienced ones would tell me, "I'll lead." Then she would take strong hold on my shoulder and comtrol my left hand. That way she had the lead.

It may have worked for me due to the fact that I already knew how to dance Rumba and Chá and because I was only 13, so my pride could well have not fully developed (I don't know). But if you try to tell a guy who thinks he knows how and you try to lead him, you may be prooving him that he does'nt. I think that knowing how to Salsa is a pride. But that's only my Havanian and humble opinión.

Guarachero

[vin]

Depends on the follow,
Those that hear something radically different than I do, I tell myself that they hear something different than I do in the music and try and follow what they are doing while leading what I think we can get away with .

Those follows that just slip up every once in a while, I am usually able to bring them back to "vin" timing(I hesitate to say my timing is correct).

The follows that I have the most problem with are those that hit a certain beat at a different time than I do. Normally we agree on1 and on3 but when hitting the two some follows like to hit it either a little after I do or a little before I do. These dances are the most difficult to reconcile for me because we are not close enough to draw the other into our timing yet not far enough apart to just give in to what the other is doing.

[Guarachero]

peachexploration:

I'm not sure that your question would have an expert opinion from me. But adjusting is not my expertese.

I just walk in a new place and bring my own style and whenever my partner goes either off beat or time, I’ll lead her to get back on. It may be easier for us to do it than it may be for women, because we lead.

And I guide her in such a way that she will not feel embarrassed not incompetent. You are in control, she does not have a lot of opens to wonder too far off.

Wherever I go, I bring my style and so far I still get plenty of good feedbacks about my style. Again, you lead, she follows. And a good lead, I argue, is that one who has learnt Salsa from the inside out. (Your own “soul” dancing statement).

Guarachero

[Ms_Sunlight]

I've not been dancing long so I can "lose" the rhythm when dancing to a fast song. I know where it is, I can hear it, I'm just not moving to it and don't know how to get back. I'd far rather a guy just paused and led me back into the beat rather than telling me that I was off!

[Guarachero]

I did not say that I tell the girl she off. It is rather done withing the context of the dance and she'll be a part of the moves. There are several things a good lead can do to keep her in time while having fun.

Apparently, a mistake in Salsa is considered deadly for some, while for those of us who have being doing it for decades, it is just as natural as a sudden sneeze.

But I guess us Cubans have no problem with the mistakes. In this region, people charge to teach and exactly those who teach are but stiff dancers. I get to the dancing floor and I pick any lady from the crowd. And believe me, if she does not know how, at least she will learn how to follow really fast.

But again, that may have to do with having grown up within that cultural environment.

Guarachero

[peachexploration]

.... There are several things a good lead can do to keep her in time while having fun.....

This is what I'm asking Guarachero. What are some of your suggestions?

[squirrel]

I have such experience of off-beatness with some students. I simply follow the beat and resist if they try to push or pull me ahead of time.

I struggled so hard to hear the beat and now i am not going to let it go!

When I lead, and the girl goes off beat, I simply go back to the basic step until shge gets it.

[Guarachero]

.... There are several things a good lead can do to keep her in time while having fun.....

This is what I'm asking Guarachero. What are some of your suggestions?

Just hold on to her and make her follow you. That's your role any way.

Guarachero

[Guarachero]

I have such experience of off-beatness with some students. I simply follow the beat and resist if they try to push or pull me ahead of time.

I struggled so hard to hear the beat and now i am not going to let it go!

When I lead, and the girl goes off beat, I simply go back to the basic step until shge gets it.

Squirrel:

I know exactly what you go through. I have taught some girls who have a hard time staying with the beat and the timing. They can make you sweat copiously when trying to guide them. It is plane aerobics.

I always keep in mind that non-Latin girls may not have the habit of following, but to do their own thing in the dance floor. It can take several weeks to teach some follows that men lead and that, when they are to spin or turn, they should follow what we lead them to. There is also some who never learn to follow. There is a particular girl here that she still wanders why I don’t want to dance with her :doh: .

I am sure you’ve danced with girls that could fracture their arm trying to go to a different direction than what you’ve planned.

Guarachero

[Rosa]

I always keep in mind that non-Latin girls may not have the habit of following, but to do their own thing in the dance floor. It can take several weeks to teach some follows that men lead and that, when they are to spin or turn, they should follow what we lead them to. Guarachero

Guarachero:

My first Salsa teacher, a South American man, did not teach leading or following in class, simply 'routines' which we were expected to learn off by heart. Then, when he danced with the ladies, he would get very impatient with the fact that we could not follow. Many times he castigated me (publicly) for not being able to do something I'd never been taught how to do!

I left that class and went to another teacher, an English woman who taught at a different dance studio. Within three weeks, I was able to follow!

The moral: if at first you don't succeed, try, try, and try again! And make sure you have a good teacher, too! ;)

Rosa :)

[Guarachero]

Rosa:

You did the right thing :notworthy: .

Not all dancers can teach and not all teachers can dance. I’ve seen some of those instructors here in Kansas City that are nothing but stiff dancers; hence most of their students end up to be stale and stiff dancers :cowboy: .

The problem with that first instructor you had was that he was not really a dancer, just someone with the opportunity to make money. And you're right, It takes the right instructor only few weeks to teach. Dancing is nothing but grooving and rhythm, style comes later.

[Miami Rueda dancer]

I always keep in mind that non-Latin girls may not have the habit of following, but to do their own thing in the dance floor. It can take several weeks to teach some follows that men lead and that, when they are to spin or turn, they should follow what we lead them to. Guarachero

Guarachero:

My first Salsa teacher, a South American man, did not teach leading or following in class, simply 'routines' which we were expected to learn off by heart. Then, when he danced with the ladies, he would get very impatient with the fact that we could not follow. Many times he castigated me (publicly) for not being able to do something I'd never been taught how to do!

I left that class and went to another teacher, an English woman who taught at a different dance studio. Within three weeks, I was able to follow!

The moral: if at first you don't succeed, try, try, and try again! And make sure you have a good teacher, too! ;)

Rosa :)

you did a very good thing there, forget that teacher all together yougo to have fun right? not to get angry :)

[Rosa]

Rosa: The problem with that first instructor you had was that he was not really a dancer, just someone with the opportunity to make money.

That sums it up, Guarachero. Unfortunately, there are a lot of them around!

Rosa :)

[Rosa]

I always keep in mind that non-Latin girls may not have the habit of following, but to do their own thing in the dance floor. It can take several weeks to teach some follows that men lead and that, when they are to spin or turn, they should follow what we lead them to. Guarachero

Guarachero:

My first Salsa teacher, a South American man, did not teach leading or following in class, simply 'routines' which we were expected to learn off by heart. Then, when he danced with the ladies, he would get very impatient with the fact that we could not follow. Many times he castigated me (publicly) for not being able to do something I'd never been taught how to do!

I left that class and went to another teacher, an English woman who taught at a different dance studio. Within three weeks, I was able to follow!

The moral: if at first you don't succeed, try, try, and try again! And make sure you have a good teacher, too! ;)

Rosa :)

you did a very good thing there, forget that teacher all together yougo to have fun right? not to get angry :)

You're right, MRD. If you're not enjoying yourself while you dance, you might as well forget it.

But getting back to Salsa followers going off-beat: I've seen it happen with beginners, but usually followers who make it beyond that level have an instinctive sense of Salsa rhythms.

A sense of rhythm is an instinctive thing and can't be taught. Just as there are people who are tone-deaf and will never be able to sing in tune (their talents lie elsewhere!) so there are those who will never be able to dance to Salsa rhythms. There's no shame in that, it's just how it is. Perhaps, even though they find it difficult to stay on the beat in Salsa, they'll find dancing in time to Swing, or Waltz or ChaChaCha easy.

That's not to say that they will never be able be able to follow a lead in Salsa. But if your inner voice is telling you something, why not listen to it?

Rosa :)

[Guarachero]

That's right, Rosa.

The key word the rest of us seem to be missing was INSTINCT.

But in my opinion, music has a two-prong outreach: tune interpretation and corporal assimilation.

As a kid, I was placed at a music academy and my father bough me a nice guitar :headwall: At the end of the first semester, the teacher told my dad: “why you spend money in this academy? Around music, your son is nothing but a Rumbero. :banana: ”

So I assimilate the music by instinct and don't ask me to sing any thing... I don't want to drive this forum crazy :buttkick: (LOL)

Guarachero

[peachexploration]

.....So I assimilate the music by instinct and don't ask me to sing any thing... I don't want to drive this forum crazy :buttkick: (LOL)

Guarachero
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Send us a sound clip, I want to hear you sing! :lol:


Question: Has anyone experienced classes where they actually teach the specifics of rhythm and timing. Classes where you actual taught the music? Classes where there is "Live" music? Maybe someone playing the congas?

[Miami Rueda dancer]

hmm... not with congas... but with gigantic speakers in the back of the room.... yes :lol: they play songs every 15 minutes while they teach :)

[peachexploration]

hmm... not with congas... but with gigantic speakers in the back of the room.... yes :lol: they play songs every 15 minutes while they teach :) :D :lol:

Well, the reason I asked is it's the best way to learn I think. I think it's better to just dance to a drum (live instrument) while learning Salsa and particularly for the aspiring dancers who have problems with rhythm and timing. If you check the video archive at salsastudio.ch/ (also our video clips for the month of April) Take a look at the percussion clip. You'll see that, that's all you'll need in a class. ;)

[Miami Rueda dancer]

........ :P that would be very interesting to try hehehe :) but I also LOVE the songs that they play there :lol:

[Guarachero]

That's true, PeachXploration. Teaching the routine of Salsa w/o teaching about the rhythm does not take people far. I was trained with music. I even danced with a girl who knew how to dance like a man :uplaugh:

[Ms_Sunlight]

How boring would it be to try and learn to dance to just a beat though? Where would you get your groove from? What would make it fun? It is supposed to be fun isn't it?

[peachexploration]

How boring would it be to try and learn to dance to just a beat though? Where would you get your groove from? What would make it fun? It is supposed to be fun isn't it?

Check the video archive at salsastudio.ch/ (also our video clips for the month of April) Take a look at the percussion clip. Let me know what you think about the groove or if you feel there's a groove there. :)

[Guarachero]

How boring would it be to try and learn to dance to just a beat though? Where would you get your groove from? What would make it fun? It is supposed to be fun isn't it?

You get your grooves from the rhythm itself :banana: . Each beat has a distinctive characteristic which you’ll interpret with you body. Listen to the percussions, they may speak to you :raisebrow: .

Luis Carbonell recited once: “Yeyo ha hecho hablar al bongó” (Yeyo just made the bongos speak). Los Papines have a piece that’s called it “Hazme hablar al tambor” (make the drum speak).

The percussion has a language. Just listen to it and watch what they’ll make you do. Believe me; I got that disease at age of 13.