Salsa/Mambo history & evolution is too confusing...*head spinning*

A

achilles007

Changui
Okay-- I know this has been asked before, but I've been to both Dance-forums and here, and my head is literally spinning trying to keep up with the history and terminologies involved here. and every other thread I search and read has conflicting and contrary facts.

Many discussions about how the "dances" were designed and should reflect the music but no one really breaks down HOW throughout all the years of different music shaping the dances. Can someone very simply explain how: 1) all of this "evolved" both music-wise and dance-wise? 2) I keep hearing terms like "Son" or "son Montuno" (is it right to presume that this is where the music first "began" so to speak) but have NO clue what that is?!

I presume this all started in Cuba, I guess? So --to reiterate-- from Cuba to the ballroom to today's current style, can someone explain the dance evolution along-side the music evolution, so I can finally put it all into proper context?
 
... that being the best answer I can come up with in the format of a forum.

In my experience, you can find quite a bit of information about the evolution of the music, but the dance history is much harder to crack into.

A good starting point for English speakers with no Spanish is "Cuba and its music - From the first drums to the Mambo" by Ned Sublette. It's a good read and paints a lucid historical picture of afrocuban music up but not really including the creation of latin jazz in NYC. It also explains some of the dance etiquette that was going on back then and positions son, danzon, jazz, etc in a social historical perspective that for me added a lot of colour to the music when I listen.
 
As to the dancing, youtube is your friend. Try search terms like:

Danzon
Son Cubano
Cuban Mambo
Rumba Guaguanco
Orisha Dancing
Palladium Mambo
Pedro Aquilar
 
Also when researching this topic, it's important to bear in mind who is talking/writing and what their bias might be. Several places claim to be the world capital of the one true salsa, everyone is emotionally invested in their chosen style of dance and music being "authentic"... in short, every piece of information you get tells you two things -- one is the piece of information you're being given and the other is about the culture of the person who's telling you it.
 
achilles007 said:
Okay-- I know this has been asked before, but I've been to both Dance-forums and here, and my head is literally spinning trying to keep up with the history and terminologies involved here. and every other thread I search and read has conflicting and contrary facts.
Click to expand...

Join the crowd! I, too, wanted to learn about salsa's origins, especially after I started working on a salsa website.

If I've got my facts straight, mambo is the mother of salsa. Mambo originated in Cuba and was exported to New York City, where it became super popular. After the Cuban revolution and embargo, ties with Cuba were severed, and NYC's Puerto Rican community - "Newyoricuns" - played a greater role in molding mambo into what's now called salsa.

There was and still is fierce debate regarding salsa's authenticity, many Cubans claiming Americans had simply added a few minor touches and given it a new name.

So one of way of looking at it is to think of mambo as an earlier generation of salsa - or you could call salsa Mambo 2.0.

Regarding the dance, mambo was traditionally danced On2 (I think), while salsa is danced either On1 or On2.

I took a class from a ballroom instructor who demonstrated the difference between salsa and mambo. Salsa is smoother, while mambo is bouncier, with a more staccato feel.

But, as Sweavo said, there are many diverse interpretations, definitions and opinions.

Son is one of many early Cuban dances that predate mambo. I think mambo evolved out of son.

Your question reminded me of a question of my own: What are they dancing in the movie The Mambo Kings? I saw the movie ages ago and can't remember the dance scenes that well, but I don't recall the dances resembling either salsa or mambo.
 
Salsa Bear said:
If I've got my facts straight, mambo is the mother of salsa. Mambo originated in Cuba and was exported to New York City, where it became super popular. After the Cuban revolution and embargo, ties with Cuba were severed, and NYC's Puerto Rican community - "Newyoricuns" - played a greater role in molding mambo into what's now called salsa.

There was and still is fierce debate regarding salsa's authenticity, many Cubans claiming Americans had simply added a few minor touches and given it a new name.

So one of way of looking at it is to think of mambo as an earlier generation of salsa - or you could call salsa Mambo 2.0.
Click to expand...

Corrections: the US-made variations to/developments of mambo, both the music and dance, began to appear before the Cuban embargo I think. By all accounts, mambo was a lot more popular in the US than it was in Cuba.

Nu Yoricans refers to the NY Latin community, which is predominantly P Rican, but also contains many Cubanos, Dominicanos etc.
 
Salsa Bear said:
Join .

Regarding the dance, mambo was traditionally danced On2 (I think), while salsa is danced either On1 or On2.

I took a class from a ballroom instructor who demonstrated the difference between salsa and mambo. Salsa is smoother, while mambo is bouncier, with a more staccato feel.
Click to expand...

I guess i have to re-iterate what Ive seem to have posted 100 times !..

Im just gonna start with these 2 quotes.. Mambo was originally taught ( in the States ) on 4. It rather quickly changed to 2 ( very early 50s ).

Mambo should NEVER be "bouncy "; great Mambo dancers were as smooth as silk !.

The differences ( which I will be demming in my up-coming w/shop ) are..1.. the music
2.. The variety

3.. the style .
 
sweavo said:
In my experience, you can find quite a bit of information about the evolution of the music, but the dance history is much harder to crack into.
Click to expand...

+1

The music was documented on vinyl, and musicians have been interviewed a lot more than dancers have. Films of social dancing from the past are few and far between, although I expect some undiscovered goodies are lying around somewhere.
 
Salsa Bear said:
Join If I've got my facts straight, mambo is the mother of salsa. Mambo originated in Cuba and was exported to New York City, where it became super popular. After the Cuban revolution and embargo, ties with Cuba were severed, and NYC's Puerto Rican community - "Newyoricuns" - played a greater role in molding mambo into what's now called salsa.

There was and still is fierce debate regarding salsa's authenticity, many Cubans claiming Americans had simply added a few minor touches and given it a new name.

I Son is one of many early Cuban dances that predate mambo. I think mambo evolved out of son.
Click to expand...

One could say the Mambo is the antecedent of Salsa.. most will agree, but, the " Son " interjection is more important, reason ? it probably has much more to do with the development from these 2 aspects.

1.. The music, with all its sub sets lke Montuno, Guaracha, Guajira etc .

2. The construction of the basic dance form ...

And this is where the "4" plays a role. The stressed beat in Son, is the 4, but breaking on 2, and ,the basic is danced the same way as a Cumbia break .

By directionally changing the 2 to fwd and back, voila !.. mambo basic . This also illustrates why ( probably ) 4 was initially chosen over 2 ( from the Son stressed 4 ) . Thats as good an explanation, as exists, and makes sense .
But, the basic mambo had 2 foundational core basic moves.. 1. the fwd and back basic and..2.. the Side, or , mambo "box" as it was sometimes called.( danced like a modified Bolero basic ) .


What came next ,was adaptions of the variations established in ,primarily Bolero and "Swing" ,E and W coast made contributions .Its good to note that, most of the "turns" in Son were "walked ", sometimes to every beat over 2 bars, and sometimes in the QQS format ( this came out of Danzon ) .

As to origins of salsa, I think thats been clearly delineated and demonstrated .

In reality, today, both are far from being pure breds !.

P.S. I will be teaching all of the above in my June w/shop, to a danceable basic level..and, I hope to get some of it on Vid.
Also, gonna be playing old 50/60s music for all the genres.
 
DJ Yuca said:
Corrections: the US-made variations to/developments of mambo, both the music and dance, began to appear before the Cuban embargo I think. By all accounts, mambo was a lot more popular in the US than it was in Cuba.
Click to expand...

You also have to understand that terms "mambo" and "r(h)umba" got re-used, sometimes multiple times. Before the internet, diverse meanings for terms could take hold in geographically distant locations, sometimes for decades, before clashing with other definitions.

In the first half of the 20th Century you can view Cuba as a huge holiday destination for rich Americans. African-cuban culture was undoubtedly "exotic" and "other" to those people. A tourist version of Son was taught, which became Casino dancing (as in Rueda de Casino). Son music caught fire in the USA but, presumably because of the word being too like English "son", it ended up getting called "Rhumba" music. Terence can tell you all about what happened to the Rhumba dance.

Conga de comparsa was a violently exciting street rhythm that was banned in cuba as people kept getting killed during the parades.

One kind of Mambo was created in Cuba but not popular there, and was exported to Mexico. This turned into the mambo of Perez Prado and so on, became popular in the US in a club called "La Conga" and people would dance the "conga line" to this style of music.

Later, latin jazz was created in New York City when Cuban percussionists collided with the Big Band to light a new fire under popular dance music. This came to be known as Mambo. The heyday for this was the Palladium era and you can google for this. This was mambo dancing on 2 (or en la conga or en clave) which did not have too many turn patterns but emphasized body movement and attitude.

In the '60s latin musicians took on influences from motown and created latin boogaloo, then in the 'late '60s early 70s there was a reaction against that and an attempt to get back to the tropical roots of the music. A couple of savvy marketeers in NYC branded this "salsa".

Meanwhile, the Palladium had caught on about its reputation and started putting on pro dancers to perform mambo routines. Footage of these people looks a lot like modern salsa, with more partnerwork and turns, more grace and less grit.
 
DJ Yuca said:
Corrections: the US-made variations to/developments of mambo, both the music and dance, began to appear before the Cuban embargo I think.
Click to expand...

Yes, I would assume the music and dance would begin to evolve in new directions as soon as it was exported to the U.S., but the Cuban embargo hastened the process - at least, that's what I've read. My understanding was that mambo was regarded as a Cuban genre, but the Nuyoricans stepped into the spotlight in the 1960s-70s and more or less claimed "salsa" as their own.

As for the comment about mambo being smooth, I wouldn't know. A ballroom instructor told me salsa is smooth and danced flat-footed, while mambo has a more staccato beat.

Like they say, opinions and definitions are all over the map.
 
achilles007 said:
can someone explain the dance evolution along-side the music evolution, so I can finally put it all into proper context?
Click to expand...

sweavo said:
no
Click to expand...

+1

If you want a simple answer to a complicated thing then you have to settle for half truths and outright lies, what would be the point in that ?

Here is the reason why it can't be simple:
The music is syncopated, asymmetric and layered, i.e. not straight away. The history has starts, stops and sidetracks, i.e. not linear.

If your goal is accuracy over simplicity then...
..there are a few good (not easy read) guides. A book by Helio Orovio (forgot the title) and Ned Sublette's Cuban Music from the drums to the mambo. Those are good reference points as to what happened up to ~1950.

As to what happened in the 60s, 70s in NYC, PR, South America, and how the next layer emerged in the 90s in Cuba, there are several films about that. I saw one recently from 1996 with a young Issac Delgado as narrator:

Yo soy, del Son a la Salsa (From Son to Salsa)
Director: Rigoberto Lopez
Runtime: 100 min
Language: Spanish with English subtitles
Year: 1996

Synopsis: 1996 Grand Coral award-winner. A joyous exploration of 100 years of Cuban and Caribbean music starting in the mountains of Oriente province. Interviews with the great salseros!

My review:
This film was awesome. The rights are owned by RMM succesor so it should be available. A must see for every salsero. The narrator is a very young Issac Delgado (now I know why so many girls were crazy about him in 1996!). They start off tame and easy in Oriente. Then the fireworks begin with archived interviews and music by all of the past and living greats (still living in 1996 or from archives). Arsenio, Cachao, Machito, Mario Bauza, the Titos: Puente, Rodriguez, Gomez, Cheo, Papo Lucca, Marc Anthony, Oscar, Lavoe, Willie Colon, Ruben & many many more. The closing is with LVV and Mayito in 1996 (no wonder the girls are crazy about the Cubans). The theme is about how salsa is the common culture of Cuba, PR, Colombia, Venezuela, Nueva York and that the Son, Guaracha, Mambo, Pachanga was rebranded as Salsa so it could travel all over the world and reach all the places where people post on salsaforums today.

A Must See!

You can probably find it online somewhere, the film was marketed by Ralph Mercado's company which is based in NY.
 
achilles007 said:
I presume this all started in Cuba, I guess? So --to reiterate-- from Cuba to the ballroom to today's current style, can someone explain the dance evolution along-side the music evolution, so I can finally put it all into proper context?
Click to expand...

To understand the Cuban side of things you could start reading this online book and listening to the recordings that come with it:

ROOTS OF TIMBA - Part I
http://www.timba.com/encyclopedia_pages/66
 
Salsa Bear said:
Regarding the dance, mambo was traditionally danced On2 (I think), while salsa is danced either On1 or On2.
Click to expand...

Cubans and Colombians dance "en ritmo" which means in rhythm. So they dance on1, on2, on3 or on4 depending on the rhythm of the music and type of music being played. As Terence stated it's also a question of emphasis. e.g. Breaking on2 but accent the 4.
 
terence said:
One could say the Mambo is the antecedent of Salsa.. most will agree, but, the " Son " interjection is more important, reason ? it probably has much more to do with the development from these 2 aspects.

1.. The music, with all its sub sets lke Montuno, Guaracha, Guajira etc .

2. The construction of the basic dance form ...

And this is where the "4" plays a role. The stressed beat in Son, is the 4, but breaking on 2, and ,the basic is danced the same way as a Cumbia break .

By directionally changing the 2 to fwd and back, voila !.. mambo basic . This also illustrates why ( probably ) 4 was initially chosen over 2 ( from the Son stressed 4 ) . Thats as good an explanation, as exists, and makes sense .
But, the basic mambo had 2 foundational core basic moves.. 1. the fwd and back basic and..2.. the Side, or , mambo "box" as it was sometimes called.( danced like a modified Bolero basic ) .


What came next ,was adaptions of the variations established in ,primarily Bolero and "Swing" ,E and W coast made contributions .Its good to note that, most of the "turns" in Son were "walked ", sometimes to every beat over 2 bars, and sometimes in the QQS format ( this came out of Danzon ) .

As to origins of salsa, I think thats been clearly delineated and demonstrated .

In reality, today, both are far from being pure breds !.

P.S. I will be teaching all of the above in my June w/shop, to a danceable basic level..and, I hope to get some of it on Vid.
Also, gonna be playing old 50/60s music for all the genres.
Click to expand...

don't mean to butt in but is this the cumbia dance?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlYl30Dqfc0

I recall being taught a cumbia step that had 4 steps in it, but the break was on 3 (i think). But I'm not sure if this is the one you are talking about where you break on 2.
 
achilles007 said:
don't mean to butt in but is this the cumbia dance?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlYl30Dqfc0

I recall being taught a cumbia step that had 4 steps in it, but the break was on 3 (i think). But I'm not sure if this is the one you are talking about where you break on 2.
Click to expand...


If you go to the vid section on this site, I have a brief demo of Cumbia..

. Syncop basic is.. 1 and 2.. 3 and 4 .
 
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