Other terms for 'Leads' and 'Follows'?

T

TheVarangian

Changui
Hello, since I started posting here I have used the terms 'leader' and 'follow' but in Greek (at least in Cyprus) we would say 'Cavaliero' and 'Dama'.

Reducing a 'Dama' to a 'Follower' makes me feel unmanly, women are not a verb! :)

What are leaders and followers called in your countries/language/areas?
 
TheVarangian said:
Reducing a 'Dama' to a 'Follower' makes me feel unmanly, women are not a verb! :)

What are leaders and followers called in your countries/language/areas?
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Well, then write about man and woman or man and lady as I sometimes do here on the forum. In germany you'll often hear the terms 'Herren' and 'Damen'.
 
Unfortunately in Turkish we use only sexist terms like guys/gentlemen for leaders and girls/ladies for followers. It's very rare to see a guy following or girl leading. Since I'm hoping to teach opposite roles as well*, I have to make up some non-sexist terms or simlpy I'll use the English words. (direct translation of follower doesn't sound good at all)

* not because I want guys to dance with guys, girls to dance with girls. When I teach fundamental moves, I will ask guys to follow girls as well. It helps a lot to understand the dynamics.
 
TheVarangian said:
Hello, since I started posting here I have used the terms 'leader' and 'follow' but in Greek (at least in Cyprus) we would say 'Cavaliero' and 'Dama'.

Reducing a 'Dama' to a 'Follower' makes me feel unmanly, women are not a verb! :)

What are leaders and followers called in your countries/language/areas?
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Seems like in most language they are simply called Man and Woman.

I am not sure in many languages other than English, the labels such as "leader" and "follower" are used in context of dancing.

Of course a man is associated with leading and a woman is associated with following. I have observed teachers who automatically will say - "okay the women rotate now", even though there might be men in follower's role. They will immediately realize the mistake. Some will give up and put a disclaimer that when they say women switch, it means all those playing a follower's role are to switch.
 
olamalam said:
Unfortunately in Turkish we use only sexist terms like guys/gentlemen for leaders and girls/ladies for followers.
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Why is it is sexist unless in Turkish there is a commonly used term that is equivalent of leader and follower when talking in dance context. Are you calling all Spanish speaking people sexist too since in Spanish too, simply men and women are the terms used. This is how the partner dancing has evolved. Personally I don't find gender roles that have evolved in dancing as sexiest. Sexiest or sexism, I think is more appropriate when it is about discrimination or denial of opportunity based on gender.
 
It's not a question of language in my opinion, it's a question of culture. Isn't the leader and follower term similar to wishing happy holidays instead of merry christmas?

It's nice to be tolerant and politically correct, but I think you can also see them as man's and woman's roles, without attaching any value to which is better.
 
I think there's nothing wrong or sexist in calling leader & follower "man & woman" (in your favorite language :) ), "guy & girl", or even "man & girl", which is most common in my scene.
Nothing obscene about it, as people in class know what you mean, and most of the leaders are guys & most followers are girls.
 
Ron Obvious said:
It's not a question of language in my opinion, it's a question of culture. Isn't the leader and follower term similar to wishing happy holidays instead of merry christmas?

It's nice to be tolerant and politically correct, but I think you can also see them as man's and woman's roles, without attaching any value to which is better.
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+1
 
Ron Obvious said:
It's not a question of language in my opinion, it's a question of culture. Isn't the leader and follower term similar to wishing happy holidays instead of merry christmas?

It's nice to be tolerant and politically correct, but I think you can also see them as man's and woman's roles, without attaching any value to which is better.
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Yeah, but the thing is, those terms are just slightly better/more accurate.
If you say Merry Christmas, you congratulate the other person for christmas holiday. If you say Happy Holidays, you congratulate him/her on christmas and a new years eve both(plus some other possible local holiday too, where available).
The same way, if you use only men/women, you will define peoples roles purely by their gender. And if you do that, then for some people, you deny them a small part of their identity. What about women who lead. What about poor olamalam who sometimes likes to follow. If the world is only defined by men and women, they have no place to exist. Using Lead/Follow terminology instead, allows people to decouple their dance roles from their gender and is thus slightl better/more accurate.

That said, you can use man/woman, leader/follower or even horse/elk if you want to. As long as everybody understands what you mean when you say it, the difference are rather irrelevant.
This post is mostly just a bored arguement about semantics anyway. :peace:
 
Platypus said:
Yeah, but the thing is, those terms are just slightly better/more accurate.
If you say Merry Christmas, you congratulate the other person for christmas holiday. If you say Happy Holidays, you congratulate him/her on christmas and a new years eve both(plus some other possible local holiday too, where available).
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The idea of "Happy Holidays" is actually broader than that, especially for those of us who live in places where a significant number of friends/acquaintances celebrate something instead of Christmas -- like Chanukah, or Kwanzaa, or perhaps don't mark any religious festivities at all. The general spirit of wanting to express good wishes to somebody during December is still there, though, and it's nice to express that sentiment safely without knowing which category they fit. I will say "Merry Christmas" to my parents or other people who I know celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday, but "Happy Holidays" when I have even a little doubt.

Platypus said:
The same way, if you use only men/women, you will define peoples roles purely by their gender. And if you do that, then for some people, you deny them a small part of their identity. What about women who lead. What about poor olamalam who sometimes likes to follow. If the world is only defined by men and women, they have no place to exist. Using Lead/Follow terminology instead, allows people to decouple their dance roles from their gender and is thus slightl better/more accurate.
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Yes, I prefer "lead/follow" when I know it is more accurate because the pool of dancers might include people who are not dancing in their traditional gender role. When I see that a class has only men as leaders and only women as followers, then I'll usually say "men" and "ladies." When I see that there is a mix, then I'll use "leaders" and "followers."

The bottom line is that "leaders" and "followers" will always be 100% accurate for a partner dancing discussion, whereas "men" and "women" might not be.
 
I have a number of friends who dislike the terms leader and follower. I can see their point. Outside of salsa, to be a leader is admirable and a follower sounds a bit like one of the sheep. :P
 
TheVarangian said:
Everybody knows it is a dama who should be called 'boss', not a cavaliero :)
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If the dama wants to be "boss" I tell her you lead. She usually says oh, no, you lead..and so it goes. ;)

But then is giving up control an act of control/power...hmmmm...one can debate this point quite extensively...
 
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