Controlling your dance

Hey all,

In light of the recent threads of 'partners who rush through a song' and the 'general ignorance or reality' threads - I was wondering IF there is a 'best' way to control your dance?

Just my own observations from dancing with others who were usually early learners/beginners or those who rushed.

For example, if my partner rushed their basic turns, i.e. they spin on the spot, as opposed to stepping through the turn; turning as soon as the hand goes up on the 3...

If this happened, I would put my right hand on their left shoulder to 'control' their turning.

Sometimes I notice that they appreciate it, but other times I see that it only serves to frustrate them further.

I have found it immensely hard to judge when it is appropriate to subtly help correct their technique through leading as opposing to lecturing! And when it may just be better to dance and make the best of it - so we're both completely off time, but we just don't care.

Any thoughts?

From a personal perspective, I have taken a stance of never correcting or teaching on the dance floor, unless asked by my partner. I will always make the best dance possible for me or my partner. Just smile, and even if you are not enjoying the dance, it is just a dance.

Agree with Toan.

I never correct on the dance floor. Since every person's motives for dancing is different, it is not my place to give unsolicited advice or corrections.

Even if asked to, I will refrain from making any comments about my partner's technique. If they really insist, I will talk to them more about it off the dance floor after I have had time to gather my thoughts. I find most people just want to know that they are getting better and a little bit of encouragement goes a long way.

More often than not, if I don't utter a single word and smile the whole time, I get complimented afterward for being a good lead. I think a lot can be said about just enjoying a dance without fear of being criticized or judged.

Since we are about to start performing, I had to be critic with my girlfriend/dancepartner and do some corrections. She wasn't used to it at all! I'm quite bossy with her nowadays, she even once said me that she wants to punch me
So far giving a hug and kiss for each critic saved my life :tongue:

Our biggest problem is anticipation (even though we are dancing to a choreographed routine, she still should follow me) and getting excited and rushing in some parts. Tonight while rehearsing I'll close her eyes with a eye shadow (yes, I have an eye shadow for only practice purposes!) and ask her to follow me. I'll lead random parts from the choreography and add some random moves. We'll see how it works.

Ah... but I was very careful not to say "teach on the dance floor" - and if that was implied then I certainly did not mean to! (I will admit my use of the phrase "correct their technique" probably did not help matters!)

I am talking about leading in a manner that helps control your partner and the dance that you have.

I am assuming that you might agree there is a difference between this and "teaching" - otherwise we're going to get into a very grey area of 'does one actually ever lead' on the dance floor... let's not go there?

And most certainly I am not talking about making comments or critiques of your partner's dancing!

Does anyone see the difference and the point, and therefore the question I am trying to ask???

I think I got you now.
If my partner tends to get out of my control,
1. I check my leading first, if I'm pushing her above her level or not.
2. If it's a rushing problem, I go to closed hold and do some xbody and some simple single turns for her and myself.
3. If she is going all over the place, no arm tension, no good frame etc, I lead some moves above the wrist level or elbow level. This reduces her options.
4. If I don't want to deal with it, I do more shines

All of Olam's tips are good ones.

If the song is slow and my partner is rushing, I may exaggerate my lead a bit. During a follower's right turn, i'll give a bigger sweeping movement on the prep, reducing the option of turning too soon.

I also make sure to step out every move when I want to establish better control of the dance. This also helps me since I tend to get lazy with stepping out the counts.

squaring up on the frame also helps too. I do this either by going into closed position or taking both hands and leading a two handed basic while adding some styling to spice it up.

If I am mindful of the above, I can usually control the dance to my liking. If not, well, it's only a couple of minutes.

Some good advice there. Thanks.

If you are a beginning with a steady partner. I find recording your practices will help you personally. With others, if you are a lead, become more confident and you'll be fine. Get a strong lead. Gentle hands but a firm and decisive hold. Which means practice on your own so you know your moves, then practice them with your partner and correct as you go.

If my partner is rushing, I usually strengthen my timing and footwork and make very basic figures with bit exaggerated leading. Pretty often a lady can catch my timing after a while. But it does not work always.

suitz said:

Hey all,

In light of the recent threads of 'partners who rush through a song' and the 'general ignorance or reality' threads - I was wondering IF there is a 'best' way to control your dance?

Just my own observations from dancing with others who were usually early learners/beginners or those who rushed.

For example, if my partner rushed their basic turns, i.e. they spin on the spot, as opposed to stepping through the turn; turning as soon as the hand goes up on the 3...

If this happened, I would put my right hand on their left shoulder to 'control' their turning.

Sometimes I notice that they appreciate it, but other times I see that it only serves to frustrate them further.

I have found it immensely hard to judge when it is appropriate to subtly help correct their technique through leading as opposing to lecturing! And when it may just be better to dance and make the best of it - so we're both completely off time, but we just don't care.

Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

As a leader there is only so far you can go as to how fast a girl will turn or spin a single turn. A good follower will usually be able to judge how fast or how slow the lead is indicating. The best you can do is have a very fine control in indicating what you are inviting her to do. If that lead is not read correctly by the follower, there's not much you can do.

Usually I will say depending on what you are leading, your frame and firmness, gives enough indication to the follower. Checking also helps, because it wakes up the follower from anticipation. After a certain time both the leaders and the followers can sleep walk through the common moves. To break that cycle and element of surprise like a check or misdirection helps.

Or you can start getting cheeky. If she's going to fast abort the lead (or withdraw) and smile. Important to do it in a playful way. E.g. If she keeps turning fast, drop off the hand you are leading the turn with. She will probably smile and get the message.

Offbeat said:

...Checking also helps, because it wakes up the follower from anticipation. After a certain time both the leaders and the followers can sleep walk through the common moves. To break that cycle and element of surprise like a check or misdirection helps.

Click to expand...

Hhhmmm... I agree with most of the other bits you said, but I am not too sure about the whole checking business.

I have found that whenever I attempt to perform a checking move... specifically in say the T-stance/titanic move - it often goes horribly wrong. It usually means the follower has like a moment of panic and will try to force herself around to face me as soon as possible. But perhaps it only happens in this particular check move.

Although I would say that I do try to use a check move to try and get the dance back on time if we strayed from that.

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Is there anything you can do to overcome, for want of a better description, 'excessive wiggling' and 'hip gyration'?

suitz said:

I have found that whenever I attempt to perform a checking move... specifically in say the T-stance/titanic move - it often goes horribly wrong. It usually means the follower has like a moment of panic and will try to force herself around to face me as soon as possible. But perhaps it only happens in this particular check move.

Click to expand...

Sounds strange. In my dancing basic titanic works with practically everyone.

suitz, I guess you arent leading correctly titanic or similar moves where you stop lady when she is facing away from you. this is just a guess.

you should aim for a smooth stop instead of sudden. that move is not like stopping girl when she's exactly facing north and then suddenly turn her to south. if you do so, you put too much power to her body. this is probably why they are panicking.

stop her somewhere between N-NW (20-30 degree extra rotation) which will make her step cross forward on 1 (on1) or on 6 (on2). this cross step will give her enough momentum to come back to you.

actually above explanation reminded me of another tip for controlling the partner. controlling her momentum.

Suitz I think the check suggested means a check in the cross body (prevent them from passing you and bring them back) rather than titanic

petteri said:

Sounds strange. In my dancing basic titanic works with practically everyone.

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olamalam said:

suitz, I guess you arent leading correctly titanic or similar moves where you stop lady when she is facing away from you. this is just a guess.

Click to expand...

Possibly I might be leading it wrong, but it does work for most followers I dance with - just not so much the beginners or just less experienced ones.

Sorry, I think I should have been more specific in my initial post - but it almost got derailed as a 'teaching on the dance floor' thread... I meant specifically for any follower who is either rushing or doesn't have good principles/technique bedded in yet.

I guess what I am trying to do is this:
I have been dancing with beginners a lot more lately, out of choice I might add. I've had such an amazing time learning on my salsa journey and just merely enjoying dancing that I would like to give back to the community and help beginners as much as I can. The scene I am visiting at the moment has a very nice mix of abilities and levels.

The trouble is for me I don't have a great repertoire of moves and I have been using these moves for so long that I don't know what I can/can't use with a beginner, i.e. I'm not choosing the appropriate moves that I could try for a certain level/ability of a dancer.

I mean, I'm not choosing to lead them into double or triple spins or anything... but I tend to dance with them using the basic mambo forward and backward, side steps, cumbia step, cross-body, right turn etc... Occasionally I'd like to challenge them a little and lead them into something more adventurous. I'm just having difficulty in controlling them when they see we're doing something new (new to them at least, in terms of they've not been taught this yet) - they seem to really panic and stuff like that. So, something like the titanic - can I realistically lead a beginner into this or must they have been taught that there's a settling step on the 1 as they're facing away from me first for them to know. Or perhaps it's a question of the follower's balance?

Going back to my original post... I find that if I try to exert too much control on the follower (for example, I control their right turn by placing my right hand on their left shoulder; or I firmly use my right hand to help guide them around as they turn by helping them maintain balance and stay upright) - some followers really appreciate that I am guiding them and helping them out in this way... with others however I see growing frustrated faces - whether that's at me for being 'condescending' or at themselves I do not know. I am just not sure how to deal with them otherwise that's all...

Any tips people?

suitz said:

I have found it immensely hard to judge when it is appropriate to subtly help correct their technique through leading as opposing to lecturing! And when it may just be better to dance and make the best of it - so we're both completely off time, but we just don't care.

Click to expand...

I personally don't ever correct on the dance floor, unless the follow is really nice and really wants to know (if she is nasty in any capacity I just shrug my shoulders, give a confused / sarcastic face and walk away). Usually I'll do it after the dance is done, but there are exceptions: like a couple of days ago, this girl and I were having a great time dancing, and all of a sudden she was like "wait... what did you want me to do there?!" and it was a valid question so I showed her and she laughed and we continued the dance.

I usually play the timing thing by ear... if I feel like can stop their momentum for a couple of seconds to get them on timing, I'll do it. If they are completely off timing, I'll get off timing with them. If they get frustrated by any sort of correction if they are completely off timing, I deem the dance "dead" and I'll try to have as much fun doing the basic minimum (continuous slight rotation off my line, self hair combs (comb her if she doesn't attempt a turn on it), that's it.

I could give you a branching diagram of what my thought process on it is, but it basically boils down to having the most enjoyable dance possible (or if it's bad, to have the least bad dance possible). Whatever frustrates her, do the opposite of that. If you think you can get away with something that might improve her enjoyment of the dance, do it. The more experience you have under your belt, the better you will get at 'feeling out' exactly what it is that you can / can't do with them, what boundaries you can push for the sake of the dance (like stopping her to get them on timing), and so on. Don't try to make any hard fast rules because most follows vary in many different flavors, even at that level.

I firmly use my right hand to help guide them around as they turn by helping them maintain balance and stay upright) - some followers really appreciate that I am guiding them and helping them out in this way... with others however I see growing frustrated faces - whether that's at me for being 'condescending' or at themselves I do not know. I am just not sure how to deal with them otherwise that's all...

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Again, it depends.... usually you don't want to try to be rough... I've never found a reason to assist a single turn with a hand on the shoulder for balance reasons (??), and you might come off as a little rough / aggressive. If you lift your hand up and they try to jump a certain way, don't try to go the other way. You usually can help balance them with your spinning hand alone, sometimes I like to trace follows midsection with a finger for balance, though if you are new and don't do it right it won't help her balance and might come across as perverted. Again, if they are turning themselves, let them turn themselves.... there is nothing you can do if a girl tries to turn herself and near falls, outside of not giving her turns at all (which might be the smarter solution). if they are using your hand to stabilize themselves, use your hand moreso to stabilize them, and as a secondary use it to turn them, which should give them the balance needed. If they don't do it on timing, you can either accept that and go off timing (though you will have to have an understanding on which foot she spins on) or don't do it at all. It's all about breaking down what you have and figuring out the best approach. Leading ain't easy.