Lead Your Partner, Not Patterns!

[SDsalsaguy]

By request I'm reposting this from Dance Forums (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=553&highlight=lead+partner+patterns).
Some advice for newer leaders: remember, you’re leading your partner, not just patterns! Many people seem to make the mistake of thinking that a good leader is someone who can make any partner, of any level, do any pattern…nothing could be further from the truth. A good leader is someone who can dance with any partner. As such, being a good leader means being sensitive your partner’s abilities and style, and adjusting accordingly—not just trying to force every partner into an identical mold.

Ask women who they’d rather dance with: (1) a guy with a repertoire of only five “moves” but who leads them well and on time, or (2) a guy who knows 50+ patterns but isn’t always smooth or on time with them. The answer is almost always guy #1…

So, what does it mean to lead your partner rather then a pattern? For one thing, just because you know a pattern doesn’t mean that you should lead it! Does the pattern suit your partner’s ability and style? What about the floor conditions? The music? What about variations in height and arm length? All of these elements are dynamic variables that vary from partner to partner and dictate against a one-size-fits-all approach to leading.

Another such consideration pertains to the sensitivity and responsiveness. Say you launch your partner into a set of multiple spins…just because you originally had a certain number in mind, say six, there is nothing inviolate about that number. If your partner is having a balance problem, then it’s your responsibility as a leader to get her out of the spins smoothly; not to force them. Again, what are you leading, a pattern or your partner?

Similarly, how much pressure do you actually use to execute your various leads? Here too a one-size-fits-all approach is an all too common mistake. The “ideal” lead will provide as little pressure as is necessary. The responsiveness and sensitivity of your follower will, inevitably, vary from partner to partner—so why shouldn’t the lead provided to each vary in kind? One of the best ways to work on this element is to seek feedback from your best resource, your partners!

[peachexploration]

Ask women who they’d rather dance with: (1) a guy with a repertoire of only five “moves” but who leads them well and on time, or (2) a guy who knows 50+ patterns but isn’t always smooth or on time with them. The answer is almost always guy #1…

Right SD. Always the #1 guy from my perspective but somehow the pressure is always on the guy to learn as many moves as possible. Frustrates me to no end. :x I don't want to spin or dip to the whole song. That's not what the song is talking about anyway. :? Dance "with" me, not "at" me. :( And since you're dancing with so many other partners from different parts world and levels of dance, five "good" moves is really all one needs anyway in my opinion. *shrug* I had one guy recently who didn't want to dance with me because of some move he called out to me and didn't know what it was. So, I saw him try with an "advance" dancer and she ended yelling at him to stop and left him on the dance floor. Please! Give me a break. What good is a move if you can't do it well or can't adhere the basics of Salsa. :roll:

[sagitta]

I completely agree. I just had to share this compliment that I got because it is such a central part of my philosophy, and itindirectly addresses the topic of leading and not pattern dancing. This lady who is a wonderful AT tango dancer in my area, taught me the AT basic tonight, and then told me, "You should learn AT as you have a wonderful sensitivity to your partner". When dancing salsa I always try to listen to how my partner is dancing and match her style in a manner that makes our short salsa trip a smooth one for her. I strongly believe in this idea of leading, communicating, connection, and to have a wonderful dancer say that to me blew me away. Definitely a "proud moment". I have to confess that this sensitivity came about because I'm musically challenged so when I started dancing salsa I used to grab dances with advanced salseras and use them to make sure that I stayed on the beat. But, however I learnt it, I got it, and am getting better at it. :)

[peachexploration]

This thread I thought would be a good extention of this one :arrow: Do you have a set of patterns you use with unknown partners? (http://www.salsaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=948)

[praecantricis]

I love being led on time, just sweeping around the dance floor in a close partner hold with perfectly synched basic steps is so much more enjoyable than having your arm ripped from it's socket out of time with the music because some guy has decided to use you as a crash test dummy for the latest routine he picked up in class. (Not bitter at all over here) I'd much rather have fewer moves led well with grace and connection. I don't know a girl that feels differently. Plus what i've found is that the guys who danced this way as beginners and just added to their rep one little bit of a move at a time giving themselves time to get things right turn into the best leaders as their confidence grows.

[DeeplyDippy]

On the other hand - only using 5 moves is boring, boring, boring.

It's OK for the ladies, another man will be along in 5 minutes. But, if you're a lead, then repeating the same moves over and over is dull.

Think about when you dance with a beginner. You're a sensitive guy, you adapt to the level of your partner. That means a left turn, maybe a right turn, perhaps her timing is good enough that you can turn immediately after her. Let me see, oh yeah, opening out - if you EVER see me doing this, I'm dancing with a beginner. You're bored :D

If I had to stick to 5 moves, I'd give up. I absolutely hate to repeat any turn pattern in 1 dance.

So, work on your timing. Great timing means you play with the timing and get those turn pattern done. It's not about the number of turn patterns at all.

[memphis salsero]

I definately understand how easy it is to get bored doing the same 5 moves over and over. However there is this one guy here in L.A. who is one of my favorite social dancers and probably only does like 5 moves. He does them each so well. I've done each of his moves like a million times before, but I never knew they could look that good unitl I saw him do them. He is the kind of dancer who is so good at moving his body that he doesn't like to do moves that keep his mind so pre-occupied that he cant dance to the music. It also seems like all the best followers love dancing with him. I think the reason he doesn't get bored is that he can move his body so well that he is always playin with the music, and doing simple moves allows him to hit accents and be more fluid. Somtimes Less is more!

SDsalsaguy I think your post was completely on, last night at class Francisco Vasquez talked about that very thing b/c the girls in the class ranked from barely intermediate to professional. Cristian Oviedo actually told his class that waiting on the girl is more important than keeping on time. There is no telling how many times I've seen a guy push a girl through more turns than she can do and jerk her into a CBL before she is done spinning.

[salsachinita]

- only using 5 moves is boring, boring, boring..

I've seen Edie & Al demostration a whole song with no more than 5 moves, done perfectly to the music.

(right after demostrating with the SAME song using at least 10 fancy trun patterns)

Which do you think looks/feels better...?

The point they were trying to make was simple: it is not what you do, but how you do it :notworthy: !

[sababa]

Cristian Oviedo actually told his class that waiting on the girl is more important than keeping on time. There is no telling how many times I've seen a guy push a girl through more turns than she can do and jerk her into a CBL before she is done spinning.

Being a beginner that dances mostly with beginners, this happens to me quite often. Follows that are beginners often take their time finishing their turns, and what usually happens is that i either do a short version of the CBL (or 'dile que no' is what we call it) or i do it very fast in order to start the next move on time. Is there a better way to get around this?

[DeeplyDippy]

There is no telling how many times I've seen a guy push a girl through more turns than she can do and jerk her into a CBL before she is done spinning.
That's what I mean when I say the timing is important not the number of patterns.

[DeeplyDippy]

- only using 5 moves is boring, boring, boring..

I've seen Edie & Al demostration a whole song with no more than 5 moves, done perfectly to the music.

Yes, but in REAL life, how many times do you think they would stick to five moves ? (ok, ok, I know they've separated)

[praecantricis]

I don't think any one is saying that a varied dance with many different moves isn't a good thing. I think that leading move after move after move poorly or with little musicality rather than one or two moves well is the bigger issue.

[peachexploration]

I don't think any one is saying that a varied dance with many different moves isn't a good thing. I think that leading move after move after move poorly or with little musicality rather than one or two moves well is the bigger issue.Right Prae! :) Doing moves just for the sake of doing moves is not dancing. One of my favorites leads, Milton Cobo, does about 6 or 7 anytime he's social dancing from what I've seen on video. Each time, you know it's the same moves but his dance never "looks" the same because he does them as the music dictates, according to the level of his partner, the energy of the dance and so on. Salsa is not "just" the moves. I could care less if a guy has 25 moves per song. All I care about is that is he does the three that he knows, WELL. :) Also, any follow who wants 25 moves per song really doesn't get it either in my opinion. Maybe it's just me but I don't see how you (as a follow) could possibly have a good skillful, souful and solid dance if someone is whisking you around at 300mph. :? But hey, maybe I'm just old. :lol: :lol:

[salsachinita]

:) Doing moves just for the sake of doing moves is not dancing.

:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

[Danish Guy]

I could care less if a guy has 25 moves per song. All I care about is that is he does the three that he knows, WELL. :)

Hmmm. I know 100+ moves well. 50+ for Cuban style, and 50+ for x-body style. So there’s enough to pick from, play with or stick together in new ways. But I will most likely chose a move or two that I don’t know well, or have just learned/seen. Then lead them a lot during the night, and hopefully get them on the known well list. If I haven’t done this, I would properly be with 3 moves only. If I dance with 20 ladies it might be fine for the ladies, but I would get 20 dances with the same 3 moves, and be bored with myself. :shock:

But I also happen to lead something I don’t know from time to time. It just pops up, and then unfolds caused by the music, the lady I’m dancing with or something else. So I am now leading something I don’t know how it will continue, or even how it will end. I don’t even know if it will work, and if it does, I’m not sure I will be able to repeat it. For me this is fun, and I get the “in the dance and music” feeling. :D

This can be done in regard to the style and level of the lady you dance with, the safety of the lady, and in according to the music played. ;)

[memphis salsero]

In all honesty, I think sometimes I keep the moves going because I dont feel like my styling is good enough to keep the dance fun with only a few moves. Al can do it with Edie because they are incredible! Also, whenever the girl is a beginner and I keep it simple and I do put in a lot of styling to make up for the lack of patterns I feel like I'm being cocky. I'm not trying to be, I just feels that way.

[Salsamakossa]

Salsero,

Interesting comment there about not having enough styling to keep it exciting. Also, if the music is not good, then you don't even feel inspired enough to be stylish, or goofy. I goof a lot when the music is fun, but if not, then we are in trouble :).

In all honesty, I think sometimes I keep the moves going because I dont feel like my styling is good enough to keep the dance fun with only a few moves. Al can do it with Edie because they are incredible! Also, whenever the girl is a beginner and I keep it simple and I do put in a lot of styling to make up for the lack of patterns I feel like I'm being cocky. I'm not trying to be, I just feels that way.

[sweavo]

Great thread! On the one hand, it's the leader's job to improvise the choreography... However: dancing, like playing music, should be all about listening - to the music, to your body, to your partner's facial and physical expressions, whether you are lead or follow. I have long used the term "accommodating" your follower but never thought about it as "waiting" for her... but it's true, if you are driving the follower physically through shapes that she is not ready to make then you are failing as a dance partner.

But if you lead a single turn and she's still not done by the end of the measure, how can you stay in time with the music? The answer is: SIMPLIFY. and yes, you can get simpler than a single turn.

If you think of it in the mating-game anaolgy, she gets to see what this guy is like when he's in charge, and she is going to pick the guy who leads with confidence, but who listens to her when he is in charge.

[Salsamakossa]

I hate to rush moves, so if she is lagging a bit, I just add a basic, and move on, or do something else that works, without making my face drop..lol. Well, I just smile, as I have certainly been a beginner in the not too distant past.

Great thread! On the one hand, it's the leader's job to improvise the choreography... However: dancing, like playing music, should be all about listening - to the music, to your body, to your partner's facial and physical expressions, whether you are lead or follow. I have long used the term "accommodating" your follower but never thought about it as "waiting" for her... but it's true, if you are driving the follower physically through shapes that she is not ready to make then you are failing as a dance partner.

But if you lead a single turn and she's still not done by the end of the measure, how can you stay in time with the music? The answer is: SIMPLIFY. and yes, you can get simpler than a single turn.

If you think of it in the mating-game anaolgy, she gets to see what this guy is like when he's in charge, and she is going to pick the guy who leads with confidence, but who listens to her when he is in charge.

[sweavo]

I hate to rush moves, so if she is lagging a bit, I just add a basic, and move on, or do something else that works, without making my face drop..lol. Well, I just smile, as I have certainly been a beginner in the not too distant past.


Yeah, and why wouldn't you smile, since it's not even about moves!