Why is CBL and/or DQN so hard?

[peachexploration]

While attending my classes, I noticed that for both leaders and followers, the Cross Body Lead in Salsa and the Dile Que No in Casino Rueda are the hardest moves to accomplish. Even those who dance regularly sometimes have a problem. Why do think this is or has anyone else noticed this?

[danceguy]

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[sagitta]

I talk quite a bit to instructors as I do want to share my love of dance with others.

It is true that that the distance covering CBL is the only one that seems to be taught. However, what the instructor shows is usually exaggerated to clearly show neophytes the execution of the steps. There also is a limit to how much beginners can absorb. I actually think that more time should be taught since this is a fundamental move of the dance, but unfortunately the clientale does not want this.

[DiAnAoN1]

You just have to make sure you practice but after a while it becomes second nature to you trust me!

[danceguy]

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[MacMoto]

Another aspect (and I do not wish to offend any of the ladies here) is that many beginning Salseras never wait for this move. They start to walk forward and rarely give the leaders the ability to really feel the pressure that is required or the correct timing. So, once they get to dance with an experienced dancer...they have to adapt really quick. Many Salseras will just move anyway...but please ladies, if the guy doesn't push you, DON'T GO! Let them figure out how to really do it!
I don't think enough teachers spend enough time explaining the mechanics of how the CBL works. I didn't get it until one teacher taught me to lean back slightly into the leader's right hand on the 4. That helps you feel, and as a result respond to, the pressure and creates the snap on the 5.

In terms of lead problems, I have noticed two extremes. On one hand you have leaders whose CBL doesn't feel like a CBL at all -- not clearing the slot for the follower properly and not putting any pressure for the forward step. On the other hand, some leaders actually pull you back on the 4 and then shove you along the slot. That may create the required snap, but it's quite unnecessary.

[squirrel]

I focus on CBL a lot when I teach, and especially on the fact that ONE HAS TO BE ABLE TO LEAD/FOLLOW IT PERFECTLY! And I always have my students rehearse it over and over again, both alone and in couple... I think all moves (not just the CBL) must be mastered dancing alone... I mean, except for dips and tricks and the like, every woman should be able to spin/turn/CBL on her own and not depends on the guy to do it for her!!! And the guy should learn how to lead it, and not expect the woman to anticipate his moves...

[Danoo]

i think cbl is quite easy as it was the 1st real move i learnt

[David]

I might add that the Cross Body Lead is also (IMHO) one of the defining moves of salsa. In other words, it's one of the moves that makes the dance what it is.


I have to agree that it can be difficult to teach or learn. In LA style it is important to get the men to place their weight on the 3 step as they open their body to allow the lady to pass. I tell the men to look where they want the lady to go on 3 (over their left shoulder). This helps the men to place the weight on the left foot, because their head is now over their left foot.

[squirrel]

The CBL/DQN is the most important move for me, after the basic steps!!! I always have my students break it down step by step and do it alone before doing it in couples! First I make sure they know the steps and can do them ON BEAT without losing balance, then I focus on leading the CBL/DQN... I explain when the signal to move forward is to be given to the follower and how it should be done... not too 'strong' because you make the followers lose their balance and not too 'light' 'cause they need to know what to do next and when to do it...
Then I lead the CBL with all the followers and see if they do not anticipate or lose their balance or have the wrong arm tension... and after this I have all the leaders do the CBL with me to see if they got the timing and the signals right!
:) I am proud to say (and allow me to brag a little...) that when they become intermediates, my students know their CBLs/DQNs!

[salsachinita]

This is a little gem MacMoto posted in another thread:
..... the basic principle (the lead and follow swapping places) is the same, but they FEEL different because of the difference in the underlying principle (circular vs slot). In the CBL, the leader moves out of the slot to make way for the follow to walk through. In Dile Que No, the follower's path is more fan-shaped (or triangular) around the leader -- at least that's how it feels to me as a follower. The leader swings the follower back to open up, then the follower steps back out and round. It's this feeling of being swung back that tells me it's a Dile Que No and not a CBL.

perso.wanadoo.es/jcgm/vp-rueda-dilequeno.mpg
This video shows Dile Que No in Rueda, but the move is (should be) exactly the same when dancing one-on-one.

For comparison, see CBL instruction clips here:
ballroomdancers.com/Dances/media.asp?Dance=SAL&StepNum=4

I thought it would be a good idea to post it here in this thread as well, for future reference 8) !

[vin]

The cross-body lead and it's variants are a favorite of mine as well. I think scorpionguy has a great point about allowing the lead to feel the proper pressure required for a cross body lead. My cross body leads improved dramatically after I danced with a woman who would wait in the cross body lead for me to bring her across.

The issue I think is that the cross body lead is the first move people learn in salsa where you have to depend on proper frame to do the lead. Basic turns are lead through the arms and can be done independently of proper footwork. The cross body lead depends on both partners changing positions at the same time. This is difficult for some to learn.

[Jones, Nikka]

While attending my classes, I noticed that for both leaders and followers, the Cross Body Lead in Salsa and the Dile Que No in Casino Rueda are the hardest moves to accomplish. Even those who dance regularly sometimes have a problem. Why do think this is or has anyone else noticed this?

I think CBL or DQN are actually very easy to learn and do. The problem is learning them before learning how to move a basic step by oneself. As long as beginners push and shove each other on the basic they have no means to do a CBL or DQN properly, and that is usually the teacher's fault.

[Miami Rueda dancer]

it can be difficult if the follower and the leader are on different rythms..... other than that i think its very easy.. :)

[DeeplyDippy]

I think the common problem I find with followers is timing.

A simple error is stepping forward on the 4, not the 5. But, I can hold back an overeager lady and, sometimes, if I'm feeling diplomatic, try to explain.

But, far worst for me, are the slow followers. I find they really pull me around and that's not good for my back.

The big assumption here is that I'm on time :D

[salseralon]

I found that the problem with CBL when i started learning was that there wasn't enough emphasis on the breakdown of the move, maybe because it's regarded as quite simple, like DD said often people step on the 4 not the 5, and sometimes teachers dont realise to correct that fault.

[Jones, Nikka]

...there wasn't enough emphasis on the breakdown of the move, maybe because it's regarded as quite simple...

You hit it right on salseralon, the problem is that CBL / DQN is not just a move, it is also a stop. As my teacher told me yesterday, dancing whithout stops is like trying to appreciate music without knowing what silence is.

[praecantricis]

I was taught the CBL totally broken down into componant parts so there was no anticipation as I didn't know what was coming next. We were sort of taught the 'forward side open' bit with a stop in in and then the leaders decided when to make the push for the 5th beat travelling step. As I was never running the whole move without stopping while I was learning it - I don't lead myself forward on the 5 - however now I'm learning to lead I find a lot of ladies do!

[PielCanela]

A simple error is stepping forward on the 4, not the 5.

Are you talking about the lady ?

is the lady supposed to wait for the 5 count to step foward ?

by saying step foward -- are you talking about the instance the lady starts actually walking the CBL ?

I really want to get this CBL down

[Jones, Nikka]

Are you talking about the lady ?

is the lady supposed to wait for the 5 count to step foward ?

by saying step foward -- are you talking about the instance the lady starts actually walking the CBL ?

I really want to get this CBL down

Yes, yes and yes
Have fun

[PielCanela]

ohh ok ... got to teach this new piece of information to my friends thank you :)